Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

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JesusRocks765
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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:03 am

MadAce wrote:Like I said, you're trying to set up rules to "win" or "lose" discussions, which I find despicable. One should have discussions in search of the truth, not to inflate one's ego.
JuliusCaesar wrote: And where do you see I have some kind of ego-driven motive? If I wanted to inflate myself I'd make this discussion on some place with more than ten active participants. :wink:
JuliusCaesar wrote:Ego has nothing to do with it.
JuliusCaesar wrote:Madace I am starting to understand your ego a bit, hell if I were in your position mine might be larger (than it already Is XD).
I like how Madace doesn't even have to argue with JC to prove his point - JC Proves Madace correct by himself. I also like the huge performance as he rages and flames. :D

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:03 am

/yawn most of these posts are pointless.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:52 am

JuliusCaesar wrote:/yawn most of these posts are pointless.
sure, just /yawn off all my good points and act like yours are the stuff, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WRONG!

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:29 pm

You have no good points. Ever.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by Woots » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:27 pm

JuliusCaesar wrote:You have no good points. Ever.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:15 am

then how come you can't argue the post I just made?
JesusRocks765 wrote:
MadAce wrote:Like I said, you're trying to set up rules to "win" or "lose" discussions, which I find despicable. One should have discussions in search of the truth, not to inflate one's ego.
JuliusCaesar wrote: And where do you see I have some kind of ego-driven motive? If I wanted to inflate myself I'd make this discussion on some place with more than ten active participants. :wink:
JuliusCaesar wrote:Ego has nothing to do with it.
JuliusCaesar wrote:Madace I am starting to understand your ego a bit, hell if I were in your position mine might be larger (than it already Is XD).
I like how Madace doesn't even have to argue with JC to prove his point - JC Proves Madace correct by himself. I also like the huge performance as he rages and flames. :D

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:05 am

Because it, like all your others, are based on pure stupidity, and aren't worth my time to answer. Feel free to post something insightful though, then I might respond.

Though we both know you really aren't capable of that :wink:

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:10 am

I can post the most amazing thing ever and you still would say it's dumb, Im not wasting my time trying to impress a mentally-disabled athiest.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:25 am

:lol: How adorable

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:56 am

JuliusCaesar wrote:Religion, to me at least, is an explanation of that which is either unknown or unknowable.

And I really don't see the point you are trying to make in your last few posts madace.
Religion is a vessel, a tool. It isn't a prime mover.

Having a moral judgment about religion makes as much sense as having a moral judgment about a chair.
JuliusCaesar wrote:I don't hate religion, I find it kind of tragic. I DO hate you though. And for someone who isn't "lacking" you certainly seem to love your pride and arrogance anyway.

And I lack nothing. I have something you don't actually, something called reasoning
You really don't.

Not only that, but you're not a very accomplished person.

GRAWRG. wrote:madace isnt on your side jr, he's just against JC. and i think i can safely say that the reason for that is the your stupidity is obvious and have already been blasted to hell and back. madace being the arrogant argumentative person that he is, is arguing with JC because it's more entertaining.

madace - i want to step on your face.

that is all.
I'm arguing with JC because he's more clearly exemplifies what is wrong with the world.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by GRAWRG. » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:39 pm

or in other words... more entertaining.

dont lie just to be a jackass. we all know you wouldn't want to argue with jr.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:26 pm

religion is much more than a vessel or a tool, your metaphor is invalid.

and i'm 17 still, so yea i'm not particularly "well-accomplished". That doesn't mean I lack anything. and if you think i'm whats wrong with the world then you really spend too much time on the forums :lol:

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by LordSturm » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:29 pm

religion is so much more than a vehicle to carry a message, it, in many cases, sets up rules about how one should act, what is right and wrong etc. its more a system of governance than anything else.

heres the wikipedia definition of religion in a nutshell

" Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

your car is a vehicle and nothing more because all it does is take you places, religion is much more than a car because it not only takes you places, it tries to explain why your going to the place your going to, and the best way to get there.

the comment "having moral judgement about religion makes as much sense as having a moral judgement about a chair" comment makes only a small amount of sense, and your missing the point julius is making. a chair does not have the ability to make a moral impact on anything as it has no conciousness, but certain activities (christianity, buddhism, satanism, you get the picture) under the umbrella of religion very much do, therefore one can have a moral judgement about anything that affects morality.

religion is just a thing, religious practices and beliefs are very much a moral issue.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:41 pm

JuliusCaesar wrote:religion is much more than a vessel or a tool, your metaphor is invalid.

and i'm 17 still, so yea i'm not particularly "well-accomplished". That doesn't mean I lack anything. and if you think i'm whats wrong with the world then you really spend too much time on the forums :lol:
You lack the ability to look beyond how you want the world to be. You lack empathy.


Please explain how religion is more than a tool bus is really an actual prime mover.

This is bound to be entertaining. ;-)

LordSturm wrote:religion is so much more than a vehicle to carry a message, it, in many cases, sets up rules about how one should act, what is right and wrong etc. its more a system of governance than anything else.

heres the wikipedia definition of religion in a nutshell

" Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

your car is a vehicle and nothing more because all it does is take you places, religion is much more than a car because it not only takes you places, it tries to explain why your going to the place your going to, and the best way to get there.

the comment "having moral judgement about religion makes as much sense as having a moral judgement about a chair" comment makes only a small amount of sense, and your missing the point julius is making. a chair does not have the ability to make a moral impact on anything as it has no conciousness, but certain activities (christianity, buddhism, satanism, you get the picture) under the umbrella of religion very much do, therefore one can have a moral judgement about anything that affects morality.

religion is just a thing, religious practices and beliefs are very much a moral issue.
Rules, narratives, symbols and so on are a message. A message created by people (or so they think, but let's just dispense with determinism for argument's sake)

Putting the blame on religion makes no sense whatsoever. People create the rules. People enforce the rules. People decide what the vessel that is religion carries.

No matter how much you would wish it, religion isn't some kind of magical thing that makes people bad by magically spawning rules. It is people that made religion bad.

You can use a chair to sit on. Or you can use it to bash someone's head in. In neither of these situations does the chair or the very concept of sitting take part in the blame.

(I would tread very carefully if I were you. Saying it is religion that is responsible for the actions of theists might bring to light that the vast, overwhelming majority of theists in the world are pretty decent people.)

If you want to make the world a better place, stop being such a pathetic little chicken and attack the causes, not the messenger.





Oh, and suggesting I don't understand JC is pretty absurd. His arguments are so very simplistic and have so little nuance that a rock could understand him. To you he might seem pretty progressive, but to me he's just a shallow, self-centered primitive who's only distinguishing feature is that he says he's from a newer tribe.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:53 pm

MadAce wrote:Putting the blame on religion makes no sense whatsoever. People create the rules. People enforce the rules. People decide what the vessel that is religion carries.

No matter how much you would wish it, religion isn't some kind of magical thing that makes people bad by magically spawning rules
At last someone besides myself sees the point - JC cannot comprehend this with his primitive mind, thank you for trying to show him as well.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:26 pm

JesusRocks765 wrote:
MadAce wrote:Putting the blame on religion makes no sense whatsoever. People create the rules. People enforce the rules. People decide what the vessel that is religion carries.

No matter how much you would wish it, religion isn't some kind of magical thing that makes people bad by magically spawning rules
At last someone besides myself sees the point - JC cannot comprehend this with his primitive mind, thank you for trying to show him as well.
Dude, please stop it. It's embarrassing.

You believe what is in the bible is the word of god. JC thinks it's the word of the ev0l rel1gionzez. I know it is the word of man.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by Mel'Kaven » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:34 pm

JesusRocks765 wrote:
MadAce wrote:Putting the blame on religion makes no sense whatsoever. People create the rules. People enforce the rules. People decide what the vessel that is religion carries.

No matter how much you would wish it, religion isn't some kind of magical thing that makes people bad by magically spawning rules
At last someone besides myself sees the point - JC cannot comprehend this with his primitive mind, thank you for trying to show him as well.

MadAce isn't agreeing with you at all Jesus, he is simply moderating between the both of you because in reality you are both radicals. Hes trying to be logical in saying that JC doesn't know he is correct and neither do you.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:36 pm

We have a fundamental difference in thought, it seems. madace seems to believe religion is used by people, I say it uses people. He claims people take religion where they want to, I say it affects eveything a person does in some way, as it is imposed on them during their formative years, and affects future patterns of judgement. Maybe you haven't been to the states and experienced this first hand, madace, but religion carries a large impact on many people's lives beyond simply validating whatever they happen to do.

In europe they don't take it as seriously (unless they are using it as madace says), so i can see where you are coming from.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:43 am

JuliusCaesar wrote:We have a fundamental difference in thought, it seems. madace seems to believe religion is used by people, I say it uses people. He claims people take religion where they want to, I say it affects eveything a person does in some way, as it is imposed on them during their formative years, and affects future patterns of judgement. Maybe you haven't been to the states and experienced this first hand, madace, but religion carries a large impact on many people's lives beyond simply validating whatever they happen to do.

In europe they don't take it as seriously (unless they are using it as madace says), so i can see where you are coming from.
Religion can not use people. Religion is inanimate. It is a very general concept. A shallow meme. Not even that. Perhaps even just a type of meme.
So something that can not do things can not use people.
Unless you, JC, are saying religion is something magical. That would be quite poetic, now wouldn't it? Finally something you and JR can agree on.


I would appreciate it if you would stop simplifying my view on religion. I purposely kept some things simple and less detailed so I would be sure you were able to understand it at least moderately well.
Apparently I was overly optimistic as you put words into my mouth. Seriously. I do not think individuals take religion where they want to.

Religion is yet another embodiment of the culture of a time, which in turn is the direct result of the environment people live in.

It is quite interesting you bring up Europe. Did you know people here are pretty much equally big (IMHO even bigger) a$$holes than they are in the US? Just as ignorant. Just as self-centered. Just as selfish. Just as pathetically dumb.
Difference: They justify their flaws with stuff other than religion.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:14 am

Well then I still fail to see your point. What else could you be trying to say in this passage?
Rules, narratives, symbols and so on are a message. A message created by people (or so they think, but let's just dispense with determinism for argument's sake)

Putting the blame on religion makes no sense whatsoever. People create the rules. People enforce the rules. People decide what the vessel that is religion carries.

No matter how much you would wish it, religion isn't some kind of magical thing that makes people bad by magically spawning rules. It is people that made religion bad.

You can use a chair to sit on. Or you can use it to bash someone's head in. In neither of these situations does the chair or the very concept of sitting take part in the blame

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, i'm trying to make sense of the incoherent mixed metaphors.

Religion is more than a concept or "the embodiement of a culture at a time" (seriously, what in the hell is that supposed to prove? ofc it is but it still affects us now and it is still just as false), it is by definition a way of life, a belief system, a set of guidelines on what to expect in this and the next life. It isn't just a concept for those who believe in it and those who are affected by its believers.

And finally, I never said people in europe weren't as$holes (nor did I ever say as$hole), only that they use religion less to justify themselves, thus you aren't exposed to that justification as much. Not that this is relevent, given that isn't the point, so it seems.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by LordSturm » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:35 am

well i think he made sense, that religion is not inherrently good or bad it just is. it's people that create what religion(s) are.

my first statement should have been religious practices or belief sets( such as christianity) are more than just a tool, and not religion in and of itself.

i botched that statement up.

what madace is saying is something along the lines of guns in and of themselves are not good or bad, its the person pulling the trigger.

theres so many various religious practices out there its impossible to state they all try to dictate how one should live their lives, because many dont.


religion cannot "use people" because it is not a concious entity. people just use religion as an as a reason to do things. i completely agree about blaming those that use religion as a platform to do harm rather than the religion/ religious practices in and of itself, but re reading my earlier post i didnt convey that very well at all.


must ask ourselves is condemning the idea of religion/ and by default its varying followers, because some people choose to abuse it to fit their own agendas fair? i dont think it is.

the overall grand point being made is. Religion doesnt get to decide what it is about, what its made of, its just a glass and the person holding the pitcher is humanity.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:27 am

Ok thats fine and dandy that religion is largely dependent on people as to its goals and overall beliefs and direction (btw, thank you for that clarification check). But it isn't as simple as an inanimate object, or a gun-person relationship. Religion affects people and people affect religion. There is a complex dynamic there that isn't as simple as "vessel"

In any case I don't see the point of that fact. Doesn't change what I defined religion as, as neither definitions are exclusive. So what's your point madace?
Religion, to me at least, is an explanation of that which is either unknown or unknowable.
Religion is a vessel, a tool. It isn't a prime mover.
So, what? And where did I say religion is "evil" that you reference, I'm trying to find it to understand the point you are trying to make but can't, did I say such a thing or are you putting words in my mouth?

Edit: what you call simplistic nuance I call clarity. And what do you mean by "newer tribe"?

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:40 pm

JuliusCaesar wrote:
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, i'm trying to make sense of the incoherent mixed metaphors.

Religion is more than a concept or "the embodiement of a culture at a time" (seriously, what in the hell is that supposed to prove? ofc it is but it still affects us now and it is still just as false), it is by definition a way of life, a belief system, a set of guidelines on what to expect in this and the next life. It isn't just a concept for those who believe in it and those who are affected by its believers.

And finally, I never said people in europe weren't as$holes (nor did I ever say as$hole), only that they use religion less to justify themselves, thus you aren't exposed to that justification as much. Not that this is relevent, given that isn't the point, so it seems.
You obviously don't get it. Lordsturm does.

The following is even a tiny bit insane:
JuliusCaesar wrote:Ok thats fine and dandy that religion is largely dependent on people as to its goals and overall beliefs and direction (btw, thank you for that clarification check). But it isn't as simple as an inanimate object, or a gun-person relationship. Religion affects people and people affect religion. There is a complex dynamic there that isn't as simple as "vessel"

In any case I don't see the point of that fact. Doesn't change what I defined religion as, as neither definitions are exclusive. So what's your point madace?

So, what? And where did I say religion is "evil" that you reference, I'm trying to find it to understand the point you are trying to make but can't, did I say such a thing or are you putting words in my mouth?

Edit: what you call simplistic nuance I call clarity. And what do you mean by "newer tribe"?

I'm obviously going way over your head. Way, way, waaaaay.

Okay, the tribe thing. The reason why you're so vocal about your atheism and you dislike religion is because the atheists are your tribe.
That's how people work. They think in tribes. Their football team. Their city. Their country. Their political part.

Us, and them. Now the problem with this is that you largely lose objectivity about both your group and the others.

In part explains it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group%E ... group_bias

As soon as you realize people think in tribes, and that this inherently not very useful in this day and age, you'll understand why the fact that you wave the banner of "atheism" might cloud your judgment. What you think about religion is clouded by religion being the banner of the other tribe.


My point is that your and other people's disdain for theism is completely irrational, counter-productive and a friggin waste of time.

This you have to understand: Religion is an inanimate object. It can not influence people. It. Can. Not. It's not a person. It's not an animal. It doesn't have goals or strategies or plans, nor does it understate actions.

Get it? Stop personifying religion. It's not alive. It doesn't take initiative. Not ever. In no instance. It can not. A chair can not. A gun can not. A phone can not. Religion can not.

If it can't do that it can not be good or bad. It can not accept responsibility. Only people can.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:17 pm

You aren't going over anyone's head at this point you are just dismissing what I'm saying.

First off I'm not saying religion has an identity or a goal or is a person with a will or w/e you like to think I am doing. The set of beliefs, and people who follow those beliefs (what I quantify as religion) influences people. Yes, religion influences people. Without imams preaching jihad on the basis of their holy book, I doubt we'd have as many issues with militants as we do today (not saying we'd be scot free from problems, but the issue would be simplified and less ectreme on both ends). Now you can say the imams are the issue. No, they do this because their holy book inspires them to. So what about those who put the violent passages in the holy book? is it their fault? Perhaps, but we can't change what was done 900 years ago. Ideas in themselves are powerful and affect people. Sure these ideas were made by people hundereds of years ago, but people don't follow the person, they follow the idea he set.

Next, atheists aren't a "tribe". We follow no common doctrine, have no common patterns, have nothing in common besides the lack of a belief in a deity. It is false to assume otherwise. I feel passionate about this simply because it is what reason demands. I know many atheists who I'd just as readily punch than slap on the back.

Lastly, I harbor no "disdain" for theists beyond jesusrocks (for obvious reasons), only the way of life involved. You say this is pointless and silly, attacking a set of beliefs is probably like punching a chair (to take your metaphor). No, it isn't silly or futile. It is the only thing to target with any hope of changing anything really, as ideas are more vulnerable than the people who follow them. It wasn't futile when christianity took over the classical world, nor was it when the romans' religion pushed out that of the celts. The only difference is that the empty hole would be filled, with nothing.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:28 pm

JuliusCaesar wrote:You aren't going over anyone's head at this point you are just dismissing what I'm saying.

First off I'm not saying religion has an identity or a goal or is a person with a will or w/e you like to think I am doing. The set of beliefs, and people who follow those beliefs (what I quantify as religion) influences people. Yes, religion influences people. Without imams preaching jihad on the basis of their holy book, I doubt we'd have as many issues with militants as we do today (not saying we'd be scot free from problems, but the issue would be simplified and less ectreme on both ends). Now you can say the imams are the issue. No, they do this because their holy book inspires them to. So what about those who put the violent passages in the holy book? is it their fault? Perhaps, but we can't change what was done 900 years ago. Ideas in themselves are powerful and affect people. Sure these ideas were made by people hundereds of years ago, but people don't follow the person, they follow the idea he set.

Next, atheists aren't a "tribe". We follow no common doctrine, have no common patterns, have nothing in common besides the lack of a belief in a deity. It is false to assume otherwise. I feel passionate about this simply because it is what reason demands. I know many atheists who I'd just as readily punch than slap on the back.

Lastly, I harbor no "disdain" for theists beyond jesusrocks (for obvious reasons), only the way of life involved. You say this is pointless and silly, attacking a set of beliefs is probably like punching a chair (to take your metaphor). No, it isn't silly or futile. It is the only thing to target with any hope of changing anything really, as ideas are more vulnerable than the people who follow them. It wasn't futile when christianity took over the classical world, nor was it when the romans' religion pushed out that of the celts. The only difference is that the empty hole would be filled, with nothing.

More and more I'm just starting to think you're just stupid.

Ideas are created by people. Not by books. Rarely, if ever, do books do things. Closely observe books and be honest. The times when they actually do stuff are quite negligible, aren't they?

The Qur'An is a pretty unforgiving book in the sense that people have been interpreting it for over 1400 years.
If you're a person in power (not just imams) and you want to justify something, anything, it wouldn't be too hard to find passages which, given a lack of context, could be used to do just that. Hell, I'm sure Somali Muslims truly believe that their horrible way of female genital mutilation is divinely ordained by the Qur'An, even tho it isn't really and the practice is actually quite a lot older than Islam. I'm sure the Afghani kids who were indoctrinated by the Taliban to become warriors truly believe that this is justified by the Qur'An, even tho it's unlikely that they could verify it as they were forced to memorize the book in Arabic, a language they don't even understand.
That's what people in power do. They have enough sway to change culture/religion to suit their needs.
Henry VIII more or less creating his own organized religion just so he could get divorced.
The crusades in order to break the Muslim monopoly on trade from the far east and to seize the riches of the middle-east.
The Spanish Armada launched by Philips II, claimed to be sent to liberate England from the Protestant(ish) scurge, but also quite motivated by the fact that England was an upcoming maritime empire, ultimately able to challenge Spain's colonial possessions.
The conquest of the middle and south American native-American empires, supposedly to spread the word of Christ, but the boatloads (literally) of gold sure came in handy.
...
In order to mobilize the stupid masses, you need that is both simple, and plays into their baser instincts. Their universal fears. Their need for security. Their neuroses. Their search for understanding. Their xenophobia. Their need to belong.
Religion is universal. There isn't a culture in the world that did not have myths of creation, rules to govern their life and a close relation with death. Hijacking this is the sensible thing to do for anyone in power.
Hell, it'd not only been done with religion. Nationalism, communism and any other ism that has the potential. Hell, let's go liberate those savages. In the name of democracy. In the name of

And are you honestly so naive (and a tiny bit cute) to believe that all these acts perpetrated in the name of a religion wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist? Even to tho the socio-economic motivations for these acts were still in place?
Tsss... How disappointing.

If it wasn't for the fact that the prevalence of atheism usually requires a relatively high level of education and thus a high standard of living I'm sure we would have already seen some acts of hate justified by atheism. Hell, it's all the rage here in Europe to justify racism with the inherent cultural inferiority of those stupid Muslims.
A larger global percentage of atheists, a large decrease in standard of living and we'll see how well atheism will lend itself to corruption in the employ of those in power with political goals. Judging how well democracy has been raped I'd say it won't go all that bad.

Whether you realize it or not, whether to want to realize it or not, atheism has become a tribe. You have atheist celebrities, atheist books, atheist clubs, atheist podcasts, atheist YouTube channels, atheist charities, atheist organizations, atheist websites, atheist movies, atheist billboards, atheist advertising campaigns and atheist bumper stickers. For what is essentially a non-ideology that is pretty darn impressive.
Us versus them is what does the trick.
Doesn't it make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, to know you have a just cause? A reason to band together to dislike other people? To organize little actions, to buy a new ladder to get on your high horse? To be a crusader in shining armor, ready to battle the believers in order to defend reason and science and whatnot? Admit it. It feels nice. A lot nicer than to admit you're basically a glorified slave, destined to go through the motions of your cookie-cutter life.

Do you think this explosion of paraphernalia designed to denote and enforce the tribe exists in Europe? Hell no. You know why? No us versus them in the religious field. Hatred of Muslims has different packaging, no atheism required.
Dawkins isn't selling a lot of books over here. Not really an atheist tribe to speak of, yet.
No us versus them, no tribe.

I find it very sad you do not realize the irony of you saying "I feel passionate about this simply because it is what reason demands." It's quite horrifying really. Shows there is little people can't corrupt.

But in the end I guess I could go with your idea of the magical holy books that force people to force other people to do stuff.
Hear that guys? Religion determines what people do, not people.
And since the vast, overwhelming majority of religious people in the world are decent and productive members of society and since religious people are more or less responsible for a few thousand years of scientific, political and philosophical progress we're left to conclude that religion is an overwhelmingly positive influence.
Wow, that was an easy conclusion. Being stupid really is quite relaxing.

Thanks for showing me the way, JC. I get it now, ignorance is bliss.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to demean a few theists. But don't worry, it's not my responsibility. I'll do it in the name of reason, just so it's not my fault.




But I jest. I sadly enough have the intelligence to realize you are the future. And the past.
Just another way to spend precious human effort into battling symptoms as children are starving.

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JuliusCaesar
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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:33 pm

Well damn I didn't think it was possible. You overanalyzed everything I said, yet again and this time even managed to put words in my mouth. I never said all those evils would be removed if there was no religion. All I said was that there would be one less justification for it in the eyes of the stupid. Its remove the justification, or cure human fallibility. I wonder which is more practical?

And you STILL don't know me. I don't feel "warm and fuzzy" about most anything, most certainly not in the "tribe" as you put it. I don't give a hug about us or them. Deal with it, because from your constant assertation that I do, I can only assume you have a strong mentality of that sort for yourself, except its you versus everyone. You live in your own little world madace, completely driven by the infallible belief you are right and everyone else is wrong.

And nothing will ever be done in the name of atheism. Thats like saying I'm going to go out and shoot a kitten in the face because I don't believe in aliens controlling my thoughts.

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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by MadAce » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:44 pm

JuliusCaesar wrote:Well damn I didn't think it was possible. You overanalyzed everything I said, yet again and this time even managed to put words in my mouth. I never said all those evils would be removed if there was no religion. All I said was that there would be one less justification for it in the eyes of the stupid. Its remove the justification, or cure human fallibility. I wonder which is more practical?
Building a giant, mile-high toilet made from lego will surely be more practical than curing human fallibility, just like eliminating religion is more practical.
But just like the toilet it won't solve the problem.
JuliusCaesar wrote: And you STILL don't know me. I don't feel "warm and fuzzy" about most anything, most certainly not in the "tribe" as you put it. I don't give a hug about us or them. Deal with it, because from your constant assertation that I do, I can only assume you have a strong mentality of that sort for yourself, except its you versus everyone. You live in your own little world madace, completely driven by the infallible belief you are right and everyone else is wrong.
I do admit I went on a tangent there. But I was on a roll, and sometimes it's nice to just keep going. So you can ignore the warm and fuzzy.

Oh, and I do live in a tribe. Was that an attempt at ad hominem tu quoque?
This tribe is called "humanity". I've got a pretty massive monkeysphere. :)
JuliusCaesar wrote: And nothing will ever be done in the name of atheism. Thats like saying I'm going to go out and shoot a kitten in the face because I don't believe in aliens controlling my thoughts.
Are you sure that nothing has ever been done in that fashion? You might want to read up about some history, kiddo.

And what, I pray, do you think makes atheism except from dozens of religions, socialism, communism, fascism, nationalism, revolution, capitalism, fighting tyranny, America, freedom, democracy, ... and all other things in the name of which atrocities have been committed?

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JuliusCaesar
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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:06 pm

Good point, I forgot the soviets. In any case their action was based on irrationality, you cannot force someone to give up their beliefs, torture or death or genocide won't change a thing other than kill a lot of people.

What makes atheism different, however, is it isn't a thing. In an ideal world there wouldnt even be such a term as atheism. That implies the lack of something, when in fact there isn't a lacking, as there isn't anything to be lacking. I can say I have 38 deities based on the cthulhu mythos (proving that would be off topic), but I do not describe myself as being "without Chtulhu".

JesusRocks765
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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JesusRocks765 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:29 pm

Silly Athiests, trying to "perfect" their world that they will only live in for a short time...

I'd much rather die and live in Heaven forever - this world is too corrupt to fix.

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JuliusCaesar
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Re: Abortion & Christianity (it isn't what you think)

Post by JuliusCaesar » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:37 am

And for the billions of others who don't share your beliefs and, if your religion was true, would be sent to hell, that answer isn't good enough.

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