on the subject of Hacking

[LordSturm]

With the recent attacks against sony, whats your view on computer hacking. I personally would like the penaties if convicted to include and be limited to the death penatly for ANY kind of hacking. You might conisder it extreme but only people who have no business existing on this planet do it. Its far to easy for people who can hack to ruin tons of peoples lives with identity theft etc and as such i believe the punishment needs to be extreme, and i'm not talking about lethal injections, a single shot to the temple will suffice.

[Major]

public flogging will suffice.

[GRAWRG.]

hacking skills can be put to good use. you really cant think of a situation where this is so?

[MadAce]

hacking skills can be put to good use. you really cant think of a situation where this is so?

The guy's trolling.

Or an excellent example of how every time someone asked "How could this happen?!" after fascism emerged in their country, we should consider this question to have been rhetorical.

[LordSturm]

hacking skills can be put to good use. you really cant think of a situation where this is so?

The guy's trolling.

Or an excellent example of how every time someone asked "How could this happen?!" after fascism emerged in their country, we should consider this question to have been rhetorical.

your partially correct madace. Am i serious about the executing for any kind of hacking? no thats incredibly extreme, but i do think there is not enough punishment for these kids out there that pull these stunts. Wikipedia, has on one of its pages, a list of well known hackers and one kid who did 1.2 BILLION dollars of damage globaly got 8 months open probation. Thats rediculous considering the monetary destruction he caused.

what kind of punishment do you guys feel apropriate for people who are comitting acts of terrorism which this is.

[JuliusCaesar]

a permanent file of the individual and his computer crimes, along with a ban on him ever owning a personal computer, ever.

[DaPirate]

the skill of being a


L33T HAX0R

[Henry]

I believe its 1337 h@x0rz

[CrazyChef]

public flogging will suffice.

Local brewery here:

[Major]

Take away their computers, all thats left is to actually go out and pick up chicks and be a productive member of society, but as mortesh always says: "You hugging noob!!!!"

and/or, release their personal information on the net for all to see. names, addresses, what schools their kids goto.

[CrazyChef]

Void all forms of ID ( SS#, Lic #, Birth cert)
Let them try to buy/sell/get a job or set up an account when they don't exist lol

[GRAWRG.]

i think punishments in the US and similarish countries are too lax period. unless you're a little too upset about some hacking noob killing you, hacking doesnt really stand out compared to the other crimes that people get let off easy for.

[MadAce]

Punishment is such a barbaric and counter-productive form of correction.

And by definition it does not stop the crime. It only creates an illusion of justice. While in reality it's just revenge, which serves no constructive purpose.


What would solve the problem is to make sure the crime never happens in the first place.

[captainjf]

Punishment is such a barbaric and counter-productive form of correction.

And by definition it does not stop the crime. It only creates an illusion of justice. While in reality it's just revenge, which serves no constructive purpose.


What would solve the problem is to make sure the crime never happens in the first place.

Give me/us an example(s) of how crimes can be prevented.

[LordSturm]

i think punishments in the US and similarish countries are too lax period. unless you're a little too upset about some hacking noob killing you, hacking doesnt really stand out compared to the other crimes that people get let off easy for.

i meant the kind of hacking that people do to steal credit card or bank information, the kind with real life consequences not video game hacking.

and as for madaces suggestion. its certainly nice to propose the impossible yet perfect solutions, but the only way to make sure a crime never happens is to remove a persons ability to choose.

[GRAWRG.]

i think the community is well aware of your stance concerning punishment ace.

.. now i gotta go. ive got jury duty and we're about to sentence this chia pet to death!

[MadAce]

Punishment is such a barbaric and counter-productive form of correction.

And by definition it does not stop the crime. It only creates an illusion of justice. While in reality it's just revenge, which serves no constructive purpose.


What would solve the problem is to make sure the crime never happens in the first place.

Give me/us an example(s) of how crimes can be prevented.

Remove the incentive. Find out why some people do crimes and others don't.

i think the community is well aware of your stance concerning punishment ace.

.. now i gotta go. ive got jury duty and we're about to sentence this chia pet to death!

They should have a minimum requirements in terms of age and IQ for jury duty. Then you wouldn't have to go.

i think punishments in the US and similarish countries are too lax period. unless you're a little too upset about some hacking noob killing you, hacking doesnt really stand out compared to the other crimes that people get let off easy for.

and as for madaces suggestion. its certainly nice to propose the impossible yet perfect solutions, but the only way to make sure a crime never happens is to remove a persons ability to choose.

What is generally suggested to be a solution (the whole bloodthirsty vengeance thing) isn't a solution at all. In fact it makes matters worse. Much worse.

Read up on determinism and you'll question the whole concept of "choice".

[Henry]

MadAce's view immediately brought this to mind

[MadAce]

MadAce's view immediately brought this to mind

How narrow-minded.

[MadAce]

Punishment is absolutely barbaric, vengeance is not the way to go, rehabilitation is the way to go however, no crime justifies the state taking a persons life.

Punishment in very moderated, efficient doses can aid the destruction of incentive. But considering how bad people are at judging odds....
Vengeance serves no constructive purpose.
Rehabilitation is the ONLY logical and constructive goal for any system of justice.

Murder is illegal. Period.


However... The end justifies the means...

Nuance sure is complicated and confusing.

[Barefoot]

Isn't avoiding punishment a good incentive to prevent crime? I thought that was the point of punishment, not revenge.

If I really want to show my dong in public, I have to weigh the punishment that I will go to jail and be a registered sex offender as punishment. That's enough for me to keep my snake sheathed. Crime prevented.

[Major]

This is a topic about hacking?

[MuTAnT]

Major is the biggest thread derailer on this board. Can't deny.

[MuTAnT]

Isn't avoiding punishment a good incentive to prevent crime? I thought that was the point of punishment, not revenge.

If I really want to show my dong in public, I have to weigh the punishment that I will go to jail and be a registered sex offender as punishment. That's enough for me to keep my snake sheathed. Crime prevented.

I've never once thought about the law for even a second when I whip my dong out in public. Never.

[Henry]

MadAce's view immediately brought this to mind

How narrow-minded.

I can't tell if that was a pun or not...

[Chicboy]

Punishment is absolutely barbaric, vengeance is not the way to go, rehabilitation is the way to go however, no crime justifies the state taking a persons life.

You wouldn't be saying that if you had a loved one murdered

God I wish we had that option here in the UK. Damn, I wish corporal punishment was still in effect at schools. These people grow up nowadays not caring whats right and wrong, is it the parents or society's fault? The same people usually end up in jail. Is it a coincidence that when any form of punishment was abolished jail numbers go off the chart?

I'm sure they had studies in the UK about rehabilitation, within 3 months or so the odds of someone re-offending was above 60%. So yeah, rehab works wonders

[omlow]

i think it should work both ways. incentives to commit crimes should be reduced (entirely removing them would be simply impossible) and incentives not to commit crimes (barbaric punishments) should be raised.

[Mel'Kaven]

Without punishment crimes will always continue... Its a given. The incentive of the crime committed IS the reason it was driven to be committed. Its much of like a set constant values so why would one want to steal someones money? Cause money is money. Now, when you weigh the punishments one then decides is it worth it? So technically you can't get rid of the incentive if you have the ability to have a crime...

Also, I believe that in most cases information should be free, of course, one would argue that the designer of the information will see no profit and will stop constructing information.. but I also believe if that information is free (such as SGE) there should be certain things you can't do with the given information, that way those who created it or own it can make profit(tokens) and keep the stream of information going and up to date. The music industry could make money off advertisements....

BUT on the case of personal information (such as SS# and ID), there should be MASSIVE punishment. In stealing someones identity you have 2 things:
A) One who destroyed someones financial future for the rest of his/her life.
B) One who had the intent of STEALING and despite knowing it would ruin someones life, continued to do the crime anyway.

A is obvious, while B I feel I must explain.

Reason B is because the thief goes against universal principle of moral law among all mankind. One can argue that there is no moral law but to keep the abstract idea of 'civilization' going there has to be a moral law. People can't just do things for the reason of doing them, they have to think about the social impact on the community of others and how it would change it. As a race we must think about others, otherwise, we are destine to decline.

[CrazyChef]

It's simple, read Plato's Republic
Hard to swallow, but ideally it works....

[MadAce]

Isn't avoiding punishment a good incentive to prevent crime? I thought that was the point of punishment, not revenge.

If I really want to show my dong in public, I have to weigh the punishment that I will go to jail and be a registered sex offender as punishment. That's enough for me to keep my snake sheathed. Crime prevented.

Excellent point!

One problem tho... Fact that people commit crimes, even tho it really, really doesn't pay, proves that they're unable to correctly judge the odds. We're just bad at that. Hell, millions of people play the lottery. That's even a lot more irrational.

Punishment would only have a sufficiently deterring effect if there was a 100% chance of getting caught. However, creating this kind of all-knowing police state is so far much more expensive than just preventing the crime from happening.

You wouldn't be saying that if you had a loved one murdered

Indeed he probably wouldn't. He would probably be extremely angry, irrational, biased and thirsty for vengeance. Struck with grief and all that.
Most certainly not the kind of person we should be looking to for moral guidance.

Society should not have its laws and morals dictated by its least rational members.

God I wish we had that option here in the UK. Damn, I wish corporal punishment was still in effect at schools. These people grow up nowadays not caring whats right and wrong, is it the parents or society's fault? The same people usually end up in jail.

Correlation does not imply causation. Besides, show me those numbers.

Punishment doesn't have anything to do with showing right from wrong. At most it teaches children fear and to follow to them arbitrary rules. And if the system isn't fool-proof then it will teach them that they can get away with anything as long as they're smart enough not to get caught.

Is it a coincidence that when any form of punishment was abolished jail numbers go off the chart?

Oh really? Please show me some data proving that countries which are more lenient have higher recidivism.

I'm sure they had studies in the UK about rehabilitation, within 3 months or so the odds of someone re-offending was above 60%. So yeah, rehab works wonders

And I'm sure I'll be wanting to see those figures and the proof that this is true for all systems of rehabilitation.

Without punishment crimes will always continue... Its a given. The incentive of the crime committed IS the reason it was driven to be committed. Its much of like a set constant values so why would one want to steal someones money? Cause money is money. Now, when you weigh the punishments one then decides is it worth it? So technically you can't get rid of the incentive if you have the ability to have a crime...

Yes, yes you can get rid of the incentive even when a crime is possible. There are dozens of crimes everyone could be committing all the time. You too. You could go out right now, commit a crime and not get caught. Easily. So why don't you? Why doesn't the vast majority of people? Do you know how few policemen there are compared to how many other people there are? The non-law-enforcers could actually overwhelm them easily. And even then, why don't the law-enforcers break the laws too?
Face it, there's billions of crimes that remain uncommitted everyday even tho no one would be punished for it. The threat of punishment is in fact not even applicable to most potential crimes.

Reason B is because the thief goes against universal principle of moral law among all mankind. One can argue that there is no moral law but to keep the abstract idea of 'civilization' going there has to be a moral law. People can't just do things for the reason of doing them, they have to think about the social impact on the community of others and how it would change it. As a race we must think about others, otherwise, we are destine to decline.

Indeed we should think of others. And whether we like it or not, criminals are part of those others.
Not only that, since inefficiency is theft we owe it to society to use the most efficient means possible which is simply not to wait around for a crime to happen, but to prevent it from happening in the first place.