Our Universe

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Moleman
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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:26 pm

No, my semantics comment was directed at your deliberately obtuse refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of my question on the grounds that it was 'contradictus in terminus'.

Regardless of the strict interpretation of the structure of the question you still knew what I was asking. Yes?

With regards to your 'definetly not rhetorical' question, I don't know. What do you think?

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MadAce
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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Moleman wrote:No, my semantics comment was directed at your deliberately obtuse refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of my question on the grounds that it was 'contradictus in terminus'.

Regardless of the strict interpretation of the structure of the question you still knew what I was asking. Yes?

With regards to your 'definetly not rhetorical' question, I don't know. What do you think?
You started arguing semantics, whether or not you are willing to admit it.


I'm afraid I don't have an answer for my question. You will notice in life a lot of people tend to ask questions to which they do not know the answer. Hence why they ask the question in the first place. A notable exception is in quizzes where the quiz-master generally knows the answer of the question he's asking.

So, since I asked a question, can we assume I don't know the answer? (this was a rhetorical question)

I'll ask it again.


How can there be a before if there isn't time?

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Moleman
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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:06 pm

Thank you for proving my point.

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MadAce
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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:13 pm

Moleman wrote:Thank you for proving my point.
What was your point and how did I prove it?

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Moleman
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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:17 pm

The one with you being deliberately obtuse, remember, not biting! ;)

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:03 pm

Moleman wrote:The one with you being deliberately obtuse, remember, not biting! ;)
You know, it's not because you use a smiley that you are in any way being witty or cheeky or whatever mental state you associate it with.


Frankly I'm a bit disappointed in you. Here I am trying to have an honest discussion about the universe and for some reason you insist on playing psychologist (in the same way that a 4-year old plays architect by building a sandcastle) and analyzing what I say to dead until we're talking about me. Despite the insistence of my ego I must say I'm not nearly as interesting as the universe.


I'm glad you're not "biting" as I wouldn't want to see you make an even bigger fool out of yourself. If that is at all possible.



Now, does anyone have something on-topic to say? I'm getting a bit weary of sandcastles and children.
Last edited by MadAce on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nine-breaker
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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:08 pm

First I would like to state that out of answers above, Madace was closest hitter, though still pretty far away (not that I'm expecting to hit a bullseye). The reason I say this is because he was looking at the Universe in a four dimensional way, using time. However, the Universe is in no way only 4 dimensions. I'm not going to go into infinite dimensions, but once you get past time, the fourth dimension, you start getting into multi-verses within the universe, and eventually into redundant dimensions. This means that what we call the universe is actually a microscopic fragment of the real universe, and the real universe actually being infinitely dimensional. (think of giant piece of paper on a table, over the paper you place a grid, in each box of the grid you place another grid, repeating. now pick up the paper and make it into a cube, so the 5 other sides look like the first, infinitely divided. The result is infinite dimensions in a confined space. Now its time to start getting into what I like to call the Parallel 4th dimension. Which is a set of dimensions running parallel with our infinite dimensions. So, make each infinite block movable, similar to a rubik's cube. Not every block is accessible from 1 block by moving, but by moving from block to block, you can eventually get to where ever you need to go. This is what we know as the bending of space time.) OK, elaborate description, I know but essentially that is the universe, much more simplified.

As for God? God is a joke, especially the Christian God.

Going back to the original question "How was the Universe created?" No being will ever know, there is no beginning or end to a sphere, it just keeps going around.

BTW, while I am a genius, I am the most scatter brained person you will ever meet, so I undoubtedly trailed off some where, if you have any questions just ask, and I will do my best to answer.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:48 pm

MadAce wrote:Here I am trying to have an honest discussion about the universe.
:lol:

Remember how long I've been here Mad, you're going to have to find someone else to play with.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:12 pm

nine-breaker wrote:First I would like to state that out of answers above, Madace was closest hitter, though still pretty far away (not that I'm expecting to hit a bullseye). The reason I say this is because he was looking at the Universe in a four dimensional way, using time. However, the Universe is in no way only 4 dimensions. I'm not going to go into infinite dimensions, but once you get past time, the fourth dimension, you start getting into multi-verses within the universe, and eventually into redundant dimensions. This means that what we call the universe is actually a microscopic fragment of the real universe, and the real universe actually being infinitely dimensional. (think of giant piece of paper on a table, over the paper you place a grid, in each box of the grid you place another grid, repeating. now pick up the paper and make it into a cube, so the 5 other sides look like the first, infinitely divided. The result is infinite dimensions in a confined space. Now its time to start getting into what I like to call the Parallel 4th dimension. Which is a set of dimensions running parallel with our infinite dimensions. So, make each infinite block movable, similar to a rubik's cube. Not every block is accessible from 1 block by moving, but by moving from block to block, you can eventually get to where ever you need to go. This is what we know as the bending of space time.) OK, elaborate description, I know but essentially that is the universe, much more simplified.

As for God? God is a joke, especially the Christian God.

Going back to the original question "How was the Universe created?" No being will ever know, there is no beginning or end to a sphere, it just keeps going around.

BTW, while I am a genius, I am the most scatter brained person you will ever meet, so I undoubtedly trailed off some where, if you have any questions just ask, and I will do my best to answer.

Perhaps we made a mistake from the get-go. We should've defined what we mean by "the universe". Just our, observable universe (the one I was going with, for the psychological POV) or the entire multi-verse?

Your analogy of the sphere is the best one I've heard so far to explain the difficulty of talking about a "before" to our observable universe.


Also, still in the psychological train of thought, I think it matters to distinguish between the universe we can see without instruments, "our world" and the universe that we can deduce trough science, but that is getting quite counter-intuitive the more we understand it. It is my sincere belief that we'll start making real breaktroughs once we move beyond the brains evolution has provided us with.


Now, you mentioned infinite dimensions? I was under the impression that according to M-theory there were about 11?
Moleman wrote:Remember how long I've been here Mad, you're going to have to find someone else to play with.
I think you're thoroughly mistaken.

But no matter, I've found nine-breaker. At least he's more occupied with the universe than with me.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by LordSturm » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:53 am

My personal opinion is that (exluding any other possible dimensions/universes) before the big bang there was literally nothing (in our universe) no time or anything

the easiest way i see to make sense of this is that if you consider each possible universe in a self contained box, then theoretically something could exist in one "box" while nothing exists in others. each universe could be running at a different "time" schedule

Scientists do belive time can be manipulated (time dilation) from massive speed or gravity so time is not completely intangible therefore time can be "created" in a sense i guess.

i think that kind of sort of made sense Im not sure :?

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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:33 pm

LordSturm wrote:My personal opinion is that (exluding any other possible dimensions/universes) before the big bang there was literally nothing (in our universe) no time or anything.
Regardless of how many years you want to throw at it, how does nothing become everything?

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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:46 pm

My theory on the big bang differs slightly, I think there have been multiple "big bangs."

The known universe is constantly expanding at a rate unknown to us. There are two tangible reasons for this. One, the most commonly know theory, is the universe is expanding because of the initial force of the big bang. Two, the universe is expanding because the dark matter energy in ever piece of "empty space" is pushing outward, haven't done much reading on this, so I don't quite understand the biggest parts of it yet.

Another fact I would like to point out is that Black Holes have a core, a tiny microscopic core, simply because matter doesn't just disappear. When matter enters the practically inescapable gravity well, it becomes super compressed the closer it gets to the black holes true center, this means that, a sizable piece of matter, say, the Earth, could be super condensed down to the size of an amoeba.

Now here is where actual fact stops, and my theory begins. After the initial super-massive pulse of the big bang, all matter is pushed away from ground zero. Now that all the pieces of matter are being pushed at super high speeds, gravity kicks in. The pieces, (still moving) start pulling themselves towards each other, because anything with mass has a gravitational pull. As time goes on, globs of mass pick up more pieces. Eventually forming planets stars, nebulae if its gas. All of which have mass. As the gravity fields start to swell up, things are pulled on, slowing matter down, pulling, combining, creating. This is the creation of what we now know as galaxies, (the smbh in the centers I will explain in a bit). Now that we have all these beautiful new galaxies soaring around in space, the gravity wells in the center of each one will eventually pull each galaxy towards each other.

Over an immeasurable amount of time almost all the Galaxies have merged and become one, which by that time, most likely wouldn't be much bigger than our current galaxy, which would eventually be consumed by the black hole in the center, as time progresses. Whats left, of this once seemingly infinite universe? The answer is a single super dense core, no bigger than a basketball, in the center of a huge gravity well. As time progresses still, and the black hole slowly dissipates, the core will start expanding slightly, outward, causing it to move the slightest, similar to the way the layers of the Earth move in diffrent directions. As these elements move around trying to free themselves, micro-explosions are happening not only on the surface but in the center of the core as well, until eventually, enough potential energy is built up, to cause a single massive explosion (the big bang) sending all the elements into the outer reaches of empty dead space. From the explosion, similar to throwing a rock in a pond, little whirlpools of energy are unleashed, some eventually imploding and creating small gravity wells, which, as they pull mass into it, get larger, and more powerful.

Now we are back at square one. The black holes pull matter to it, eventually creating more galaxies. Like a vicious cycle, there is multiple beginnings, and multiple endings.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by LordSturm » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:56 pm

Moleman wrote:
LordSturm wrote:My personal opinion is that (exluding any other possible dimensions/universes) before the big bang there was literally nothing (in our universe) no time or anything.
Regardless of how many years you want to throw at it, how does nothing become everything?

well if time is alterable. its concievable that it could be created as well. so in a place with no time there would be nothing.

the difficult part is for the big bang to exist there would have to be all that matter to have already existed (according to the laws of conservation of matter it cannot be created or destroyed).

we have to ask ourselves if time is matter (if it is then time had to have already existed) if it's not its possible time didnt exist before the big bang (it could also be created and destroyed)

can matter exist without time. that is the real question here.


maybe there was a universe before the big bang. and our universe is the remnants of a previous universe that was inside a supermassive black hole which eventually exploded.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by -nox- » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:18 pm

hang on, let me get my book of stereotypes.

Here we go...*removes "nine-breaker = ignorant redneck"*...to be determined...

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:23 pm

-nox- wrote:hang on, let me get my book of stereotypes.

Here we go...*removes "nine-breaker = ignorant redneck"*...to be determined...
You know, I'd like to think I've made haughty, indignant, elitist and arrogant into an art-form. But then you come along to put me in my place and show me how it's really done.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by -nox- » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:52 pm

an elitist belgian...would that be a contradictio in terminis or a oxymoron?

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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:11 pm

-nox- wrote:hang on, let me get my book of stereotypes.

Here we go...*removes "nine-breaker = ignorant redneck"*...to be determined...
Thanks..... I think???

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:23 pm

-nox- wrote:an elitist belgian...would that be a contradictio in terminis or a oxymoron?
A racial slur? How wonderfully pedestrian of you. Trying to level with the common folk, are you?


If it wasn't for the pseudo-intellectual wordplay I wouldn't have known it to be you.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:32 pm

MadAce wrote:Now, you mentioned infinite dimensions? I was under the impression that according to M-theory there were about 11?
Yes and No, going back to the rubiks cube analogy i used, each cube is a dimension, each dimension has its own set of dimensions. Making it infinitely huge in a confined space. That being said, I want to see if you, madace, can deduct what that means about our own dimension. If you can figure it out, its almost scary and over whelming at first.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:41 pm

I also found this. This was a part of an email I wrote to a well know physicist, Michio Kaku, a year or so back, that sparked up an interesting conversation.
My theory on said beings; They would be able to traverse the fourth dimension, time, like we can traverse the third dimension depth, moving around freely, back and forth. I know your smart enough to wrap your brain around it, so I will take it one step further. What if there was a fifth dimension. What would it be? We have 1. Length 2. Width 3. Depth 4. Time. So after time the only logical conclusion would be a combination of the four previous dimensions, which I would like to call space. Not space as in outer space, but as in unfolded super compressed area and time. Similar to the tent in Harry Potter, small on the outside, more space on the inside. More space would be created because for every point of the previous 4 dimensions, would also have those four dimensions. Creating infinite space. Paradoxically, the only way to create the dimensions within the dimensions, would be more dimensions. So when you come around to the sixth dimension, every dimension previous to that, is branched out, into the last 5 dimensions. This would create the parallel universes that you would see on t.v. like Sliders, for instance. Theoretically, you can apply all previous dimensions to each separate infinite dimension, and the cycle would restart... kind of. Now that I have you on this train of thought, I need you to figure out what I am implying about our dimension. If you can figure it out, then you will be useful to me, because I'm stuck on the next stage, and I need some one to argue with me, and get my brain to thinking.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by omlow » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:45 am

that's heartbreaking, dave34.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:19 pm

Nine-breaker, what do you mean with the word "dimension"?

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Re: Our Universe

Post by nine-breaker » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:35 pm

MadAce wrote:Nine-breaker, what do you mean with the word "dimension"?
I use dimension in three different ways;
1. A point, line, or object in space giving length, width, and depth
2. A phase or rule in which is pressed upon by physics
3. Each cube in the example I gave would be considered a different dimension. Similar to the 1st def, just more specific.

Those aren't the not best explanations, I'm aware of this, but I hope that a lot of what I say is already implied.

EDIT: I was going to add something to this, but I have forgotten what it is. Its very difficult for me to grab and keep a hold of individual ideas in my head, so I'm constantly forgetting about things. If I remember, at the risk of angering Major, then I will double post.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by NARUTARD » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:15 am


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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:05 pm

MadAce wrote:
-nox- wrote:an elitist belgian...would that be a contradictio in terminis or a oxymoron?
A racial slur? How wonderfully pedestrian of you. Trying to level with the common folk, are you?


If it wasn't for the pseudo-intellectual wordplay I wouldn't have known it to be you.
Belgian is a nationality not a race therefore it can't be a racial slur.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:13 pm

Moleman wrote:
MadAce wrote:
-nox- wrote:an elitist belgian...would that be a contradictio in terminis or a oxymoron?
A racial slur? How wonderfully pedestrian of you. Trying to level with the common folk, are you?


If it wasn't for the pseudo-intellectual wordplay I wouldn't have known it to be you.
Belgian is a nationality not a race therefore it can't be a racial slur.
I knew someone was going to say that, but I was expecting it to be someone less predictable.


In response: "racial slurs" are ethnophaulisms. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnophaulism

Please don't pretend that by purposively misunderstanding someone and attempting to correct a well-known expression everyone perfectly well understood you are actually correcting anything or doing anything remotely constructive.

Typical Fenian BS if you ask me...

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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:20 pm

Purposely misunderstanding someone you say?!

I love the smell of hypocrisy on a Sunday evening! ;)

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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:54 am

Moleman wrote:Purposely misunderstanding someone you say?!

I love the smell of hypocrisy on a Sunday evening! ;)
Firstly, supposing I am a hypocrite, this does not thwart my point one bit.

Secondly, are you somehow exempt from being a hypocrite yourself because someone else (supposedly) acts like one? If I kill someone, does that act give you the right to do the same? Think about that for a second.

Thirdly, I wasn't purposively misunderstanding you. You can deduce this easily from the fact that if I were , you wouldn't have understood me doing it. So don't flatter yourself too much.

Fourth: The guy who ever told you were witty and quick on your feet... Don't trust him. Seriously.

Fifth: Next time you find yourself too stupid to answer a question, admit to it and don't just attempt to derail a thread to hide it. It will intensely decrease your little b!tch status.

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Re: Our Universe

Post by Moleman » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:25 pm

Image

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MadAce
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Re: Our Universe

Post by MadAce » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:11 pm

I have a lot more respect for actual trolls than I have for people who pretend to be trolling to cover up their conversational inadequacies and stupidity.

Image

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