California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

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Did you want California Prop 19 to pass?

Yes
26
68%
No
12
32%
 
Total votes: 38

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mcdfatty
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California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:21 pm

Google California Proposition 19. It will be voted upon by all residents of california on November 2, 2010. What do you think about it. If passed, the recreational use of weed will be legal in California.

/discuss
Last edited by mcdfatty on Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:55 pm

I think maybe it will work like a kid and ice cream, he wants it so much constantly all the time he cries and whines about it, and then you give him a massive amount that he can't eat and he gets sick of it.

Perhaps everyone out there messing up their life with all different kinds of drugs will get sick of it too, and if they don't I suppose that's less competition for the people that do know how to keep their BBQ together.

Perhaps also legalizing weed will drop its face value on the streets, maybe it will hinder the cartels a bit.

In some ways it's a good idea, in some ways its alluring the possibility to make it easier for someone to ruin their life. In my opinion however what someone does with their life is their business and if they want to screw it up I won't stop'em. Typically druggies have lost too much IQ to see any sense in stopping anyway, or just refuse to listen to anyone who tells them they're going to die in a couple of years.

I answered yes however because, as it is with every such drug illegal. It doesn't appear to be doing society any good, cops just suck at their job to much to make a difference, and the DEA is to pus sy to put in a good word with the president about having a war with the cartels because the politicians in southern america and mexico profit too much from the selling of illegal drugs in the U.S.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:58 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:Typically druggies have lost too much IQ to see any sense in stopping anyway, or just refuse to listen to anyone who tells them they're going to die in a couple of years.
Prove to me Marijuana causes loss of IQ and death within a couple of years.

Thanks in advance.

(If anyone wants to help him out, feel free to do so)

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:28 pm

MadAce wrote:
-PLAGUE- wrote:Typically druggies have lost too much IQ to see any sense in stopping anyway, or just refuse to listen to anyone who tells them they're going to die in a couple of years.
Prove to me Marijuana causes loss of IQ and death within a couple of years.

Thanks in advance.

(If anyone wants to help him out, feel free to do so)
Well if I could show you a video of brain cells getting murdered I would. But I really don't think that's possible, just google it will give you all the information you need.

The proof that I need comes from the people that I know who started doing it, seems like they get more and more stupid every day. Their high all the time, blurry eyed and can't focus on a damn thing. Of course that affects even how they handle school. They either sleep or just sit there staring at a wall on the edge of drooling for a good five minutes at a time.

At the very least proof can be found in that when people do drugs if they have school they have no sense of focus and can't learn anything because their sitting their having fantasies about the school burning down and everyone in it turning into fish and going into a coma and showing up in fish heaven. True words spoken by a true druggie might I add.

Yet another post from MadAce, that is more focused on insulting someone elses opinion of the topic than applying his own.

So I reply to you king of all nerds, prove to me drugs don't make people stupid. It's probably equally as possible as what you asked me to do.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:33 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:
MadAce wrote:
-PLAGUE- wrote:Typically druggies have lost too much IQ to see any sense in stopping anyway, or just refuse to listen to anyone who tells them they're going to die in a couple of years.
Prove to me Marijuana causes loss of IQ and death within a couple of years.

Thanks in advance.

(If anyone wants to help him out, feel free to do so)
Well if I could show you a video of brain cells getting murdered I would. But I really don't think that's possible, just google it will give you all the information you need.

The proof that I need comes from the people that I know who started doing it, seems like they get more and more stupid every day. Their high all the time, blurry eyed and can't focus on a damn thing. Of course that affects even how they handle school. They either sleep or just sit there staring at a wall on the edge of drooling for a good five minutes at a time.

At the very least proof can be found in that when people do drugs if they have school they have no sense of focus and can't learn anything because their sitting their having fantasies about the school burning down and everyone in it turning into fish and going into a coma and showing up in fish heaven. True words spoken by a true druggie might I add.
I already Googled it. Why do I think I'm asking you to provide proof? There's no use in me asking proof for something I've already seen proven.

The anecdotal evidence you're recounting is entirely subjective and not even close to being consistent and objective enough to extrapolate a trend from.

And even if it would show anything even remotely useful it's still entirely, completely unconnected to your claim that Marijuana use causes loss of IQ or death within a few years.

Of course I might very well be wrong, contrary to the research I've done on the subject. Hence why I'm graciously requesting some proof from you.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:40 pm

MadAce >"The anecdotal evidence you're recounting is entirely subjective and not even close to being consistent and objective enough to extrapolate a trend from."

PLAGUE >I'm assuming that came from your online dictionary tab, good job on trying to confuse the person responding to you but nothing you said made very much sense at all.

Madace> "And even if it would show anything even remotely useful it's still entirely, completely unconnected to your claim."

PLAGUE >So the fact that students pay no attention in school because their high off their asses is completely unconnected to my claim that drug usage hinders a persons intelligence? Yeah that makes sense Good job.

Madace >"Of course I might very well be wrong, contrary to the research I've done on the subject."

PLAGUE> You are very well wrong especially considering that you have done no research on the subject what so ever otherwise you might have the answer to the question you asked me and a useful response to the topic in general.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:46 pm

But if california passes the law... then the domino theory takes place, and arizona, oregon, nevada, and washington will follow soon after. That would be too much

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:52 pm

mcdfatty wrote:But if california passes the law... then the domino theory takes place, and arizona, oregon, nevada, and washington will follow soon after. That would be too much
Hmm, it may or may not happen.

But either way, what the government is doing about drugs right now isn't working at all. Some kind of change has to be made, a decision needs to be made to make that change happen. Only thing we can be certain of is that doing nothing won't help the cause either.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:54 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:
mcdfatty wrote:But if california passes the law... then the domino theory takes place, and arizona, oregon, nevada, and washington will follow soon after. That would be too much
Hmm, it may or may not happen.

But either way, what the government is doing about drugs right now isn't working at all. Some kind of change has to be made, a decision needs to be made to make that change happen. Only thing we can be certain of is that doing nothing won't help the cause either.
i just dont want that BBQ floating in the air when i'm on a beach in san diego

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:00 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:MadAce >"The anecdotal evidence you're recounting is entirely subjective and not even close to being consistent and objective enough to extrapolate a trend from."

PLAGUE >I'm assuming that came from your online dictionary tab, good job on trying to confuse the person responding to you but nothing you said made very much sense at all.

Madace> "And even if it would show anything even remotely useful it's still entirely, completely unconnected to your claim."

PLAGUE >So the fact that students pay no attention in school because their high off their asses is completely unconnected to my claim that drug usage hinders a persons intelligence? Yeah that makes sense Good job.

Madace >"Of course I might very well be wrong, contrary to the research I've done on the subject."

PLAGUE> You are very well wrong especially considering that you have done no research on the subject what so ever otherwise you might have the answer to the question you asked me and a useful response to the topic in general.
I'm assuming that came from your online dictionary tab, good job on trying to confuse the person responding to you but nothing you said made very much sense at all.
If I would be trying to confuse you then I'd use difficult words. I wasn't.

The sentence simply meant that the group of people you base your opinions on is simply too small. The larger the group you observe the greater the accuracy, generally. Your group is tiny compared to the vastness of the world.
Not only that, but you are, whether you want to be or not, very biased.
So the fact that students pay no attention in school because their high off their asses is completely unconnected to my claim that drug usage hinders a persons intelligence? Yeah that makes sense Good job.
A very important tenet in the sciences is that correlation does not mean causation.
Just because you saw some slackers use drugs does not mean that the drug use caused them to be slackers. There could be other causes for this and the druge use could just be another symptom of this cause.
You are very well wrong especially considering that you have done no research on the subject what so ever otherwise you might have the answer to the question you asked me and a useful response to the topic in general.
I've done plenty of research as I've had this discussion many times in the past.
I asked you the question so you'd look up some facts. I've always found it important to teach children this.



I'm actually quite convinced that use of Marijuana will temporarily decrease the likelihood of getting an accurate IQ score, and a lower one most likely. So does alcohol, multitasking, a lot of prescription medication and being sleepy (and perhaps even certain foods).
Maybe you shouldn't blame Marijuana for those guys being slackers, maybe you should blame the cause of them using Marijuana.

Oh, and Marijuana does not have long term adverse effects on the intelligence and cognition.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... juana.html




BTW, how about proving your claim that Marijuana use causes death within a few years?

mcdfatty wrote:
-PLAGUE- wrote:
mcdfatty wrote:But if california passes the law... then the domino theory takes place, and arizona, oregon, nevada, and washington will follow soon after. That would be too much
Hmm, it may or may not happen.

But either way, what the government is doing about drugs right now isn't working at all. Some kind of change has to be made, a decision needs to be made to make that change happen. Only thing we can be certain of is that doing nothing won't help the cause either.
i just dont want that BBQ floating in the air when i'm on a beach in san diego
Indeed. Exhaust fumes of cars are a lot better... Oh, wait... Darn...

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:01 pm

Well my life has already been shortened by gas fumes... weed just wont help it either, only hurt

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:04 pm

mcdfatty wrote:Well my life has already been shortened by gas fumes... weed just wont help it either, only hurt
I tend to agree.

Yay for pot brownies!

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:06 pm

MadAce wrote:
mcdfatty wrote:Well my life has already been shortened by gas fumes... weed just wont help it either, only hurt
I tend to agree.

Yay for pot brownies!
woot :lol:

Madace do u have a list of the earliest patches of the games?

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:15 pm

When I said a few I was being very broad, it actually can be proved that people who use regularly have much shorter life spans than people who do not.

Also, I have observed a great many of these people not just friends and family though it has affected both of those and I'm sure there is research and graphs on the whole population concerning this subject that proves my point as well. With as many times as I've moved and as many schools full of people i've seen with the same problem and everything I hear on the news and about other schools, its safe to say that when it comes to drugs cause and effect repeats itself pretty thoroughly within our population. People don't seem to be all that different from eachother, their bodies and minds all act the same with some exceptions very very few exceptions.

What your saying about my observing just a few to predict the being of a great many is flawed. I have seen the technique used in investigations and studies all around the world that when a small group is affected the larger can then be predicted accurately. For example.

Say that it was true that in a room full 100 subjects 7 in every 10 were affected negatively by the affects of a certain medicine or vaccine. Those numbers can then be multiplied to 7,000,000 in every 10,000,000 subjects on average are affected negatively by that medicine or vaccine. In general my point is to say that when observing a small amount of subjects accurate inferences can be made about larger groups of subjects.

My last high school, St.James high school, had a population of roughly 2700 students. One day to try to motivate teachers and students our over all fail rate was shown on the morning news, 62% of the school was failing in more than one subject. Less than 1% had all a's, and somewhere between 3-5% had a's and b's.

Based on my personal experience with everyone around me I can say without a doubt that more than half of my school would go out every friday night and get shitfaced with whatever they could get their hands on.

Being that 62% of 2600 kids IQ is affected negatively by the involvement of drugs I can then multiply those numbers and make an accurate inference.

38% of the students involved in this study did not do drugs, and had decent grades and overall a higher IQ.

Multiplying the numbers again, you can see that when any number of people in our society is affected by drugs, roughly the same number of people must have a lower IQ than the average person not using drugs.

Now, as far as proof goes yet again. Your brain needs oxygen, now tell me that it doesn't kill your brain cells to inhale toxic fumes. Simple as that.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:27 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:When I said a few I was being very broad, it actually can be proved that people who use regularly have much shorter life spans than people who do not.

Also, I have observed a great many of these people not just friends and family though it has affected both of those and I'm sure there is research and graphs on the whole population concerning this subject that proves my point as well. With as many times as I've moved and as many schools full of people i've seen with the same problem and everything I hear on the news and about other schools, its safe to say that when it comes to drugs cause and effect repeats itself pretty thoroughly within our population. People don't seem to be all that different from eachother, their bodies and minds all act the same with some exceptions very very few exceptions.

What your saying about my observing just a few to predict the being of a great many is flawed. I have seen the technique used in investigations and studies all around the world that when a small group is affected the larger can then be predicted accurately. For example.

Say that it was true that in a room full 100 subjects 7 in every 10 were affected negatively by the affects of a certain medicine or vaccine. Those numbers can then be multiplied to 7,000,000 in every 10,000,000 subjects on average are affected negatively by that medicine or vaccine. In general my point is to say that when observing a small amount of subjects accurate inferences can be made about larger groups of subjects.

My last high school, St.James high school, had a population of roughly 2700 students. One day to try to motivate teachers and students our over all fail rate was shown on the morning news, 62% of the school was failing in more than one subject. Less than 1% had all a's, and somewhere between 3-5% had a's and b's.

Based on my personal experience with everyone around me I can say without a doubt that more than half of my school would go out every friday night and get shitfaced with whatever they could get their hands on.

Being that 62% of 2600 kids IQ is affected negatively by the involvement of drugs I can then multiply those numbers and make an accurate inference.

38% of the students involved in this study did not do drugs, and had decent grades and overall a higher IQ.

Multiplying the numbers again, you can see that when any number of people in our society is affected by drugs, roughly the same number of people must have a lower IQ than the average person not using drugs.

Now, as far as proof goes yet again. Your brain needs oxygen, now tell me that it doesn't kill your brain cells to inhale toxic fumes. Simple as that.
Wow lol people's posts are usually small, of course people would have a lot to say on this topic.

:lol:

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:57 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:When I said a few I was being very broad, it actually can be proved that people who use regularly have much shorter life spans than people who do not.
Which is it then? In a couple of years or a shorter life span? I think you will have to agree that "in a couple of years" means something significantly different from "a shorter life span".

There could be a loss of life span due to smoking Marijuana, but this does not mean eating it also shortens the life span. Does smoking lessen the life span or the Marijuana? It's all about how you use something. When used to bash ones own head in chairs could be said to shorten the life span.

Making an absolutely claim about the effects of Marijuana on the life span should be done with nuance and with regard for how it is used.

I would genuinely like you to link me to as much studies on the subject as you can, as there are not many.

The studies I found suggest it's not likely to cause cancer:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 29_pf.html
http://www.webmd.com/lung-cancer/news/2 ... ung-cancer :
"Cellular studies and even some studies in animal models suggest that THC has antitumor properties, either by encouraging the death of genetically damaged cells that can become cancerous or by restricting the development of the blood supply that feeds tumors"
-PLAGUE- wrote: Also, I have observed a great many of these people not just friends and family though it has affected both of those and I'm sure there is research and graphs on the whole population concerning this subject that proves my point as well. With as many times as I've moved and as many schools full of people i've seen with the same problem and everything I hear on the news and about other schools, its safe to say that when it comes to drugs cause and effect repeats itself pretty thoroughly within our population. People don't seem to be all that different from eachother, their bodies and minds all act the same with some exceptions very very few exceptions.
I'm sure you have observed a great deal of people. If you are so sure that there is research and graphics on the subject to support your point I employ you to look them up and show them to me.

You have yet to explain a clear cause and effect. Remember, correlation does not denote causation.
-PLAGUE- wrote:What your saying about my observing just a few to predict the being of a great many is flawed. I have seen the technique used in investigations and studies all around the world that when a small group is affected the larger can then be predicted accurately. For example.

Say that it was true that in a room full 100 subjects 7 in every 10 were affected negatively by the affects of a certain medicine or vaccine. Those numbers can then be multiplied to 7,000,000 in every 10,000,000 subjects on average are affected negatively by that medicine or vaccine. In general my point is to say that when observing a small amount of subjects accurate inferences can be made about larger groups of subjects.
I applaud your self-confidence. However, as I've said before, the larger your test group, the greater the accuracy. The "technique" you're referring to is called "extrapolation". Everyone together: "Ex-Tra-Po-La-Tion". Good.

Remember how this was one of the words you found so confusing previously?

The group you've "observed" (hardly compared to scientific standards) is too small considering the complexity of the issue.
-PLAGUE- wrote: My last high school, St.James high school, had a population of roughly 2700 students. One day to try to motivate teachers and students our over all fail rate was shown on the morning news, 62% of the school was failing in more than one subject. Less than 1% had all a's, and somewhere between 3-5% had a's and b's.

Based on my personal experience with everyone around me I can say without a doubt that more than half of my school would go out every friday night and get shitfaced with whatever they could get their hands on.

Being that 62% of 2600 kids IQ is affected negatively by the involvement of drugs I can then multiply those numbers and make an accurate inference.

38% of the students involved in this study did not do drugs, and had decent grades and overall a higher IQ.
You make a few unfounded and rash assumptions that complete corrupt your data set, not to mention that your conclusion most certainly do not hold up under scrutiny.

You directly link school achievement with IQ. They're related, but it's perfectly possible for someone with an average IQ to score straight A's and someone with a high IQ to flunk every test. The only correct way to measure IQ is to take IQ tests.

You're a single individual not being paid to check up on your fellow students, not able to be everywhere at once and most certainly not objective. (Nor am I or is anyone else) "More than half" could be clouded by selective perception , confirmation bias or any number of cognitive biases. It is completely unreliable.

You directly link the 62% with sub-par academic performance to the "more than half" that you deem to be "shitfaced" in weekends. You think both groups are the same group simply because both are slightly over 50%. There's however no causal link established between both groups.

You therefore haven't proven anything, and I'm not aiming to be insulting, but I wouldn't try to become a statistician if I were you. Just some friendly advice.
-PLAGUE- wrote: Multiplying the numbers again, you can see that when any number of people in our society is affected by drugs, roughly the same number of people must have a lower IQ than the average person not using drugs.
You can not extrapolate your "study" to the whole of society. Society isn't a high school, for one because it has a large percentage of people older than 18 and secondly because society does not consist of nothing but students. Not only that, but you should take into account that your high school was in a certain state and is thus not representative for all states.
-PLAGUE- wrote: Now, as far as proof goes yet again. Your brain needs oxygen, now tell me that it doesn't kill your brain cells to inhale toxic fumes. Simple as that.
Now you have to prove that the fumes inhaled while smoking Marijuana impede oxygen absorption by the brain. Good luck.

BTW, there are more ways to use Marijuana than to smoke it. Watch out you don't just end up proving smoking is bad.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:17 pm

Ugh, My friend you do have a LOT of time on your hands don't you?

Sigh, and this all based off of the assumption of IQ being affected negatively by marijuana.

I just don't see it being possible for smoking NOT to affect the brain negatively, breathing in fumes is not good for you.

If what your saying in that last statement means that the brain has some way of seperating the oxygen from the fumes your wrong, because the proof is in the effects of the drugs itself, to be high is basically proving that the drug is disorienting your brain, causing all of your brains normal functions to be disoriented.
I thought it was obvious that drugs MUST affect the brain for that reason.

And if they do shouldn't it also be obvious that something that dulls your nerves and disorients your brains ability to function will in the long run cause serious damage?

I mean spout off all of the studies you want but it all just boils down to common sense.

Idk what all that was about cancer, were not even talking about cancer.

You made a good point however I have to admit on the people of whom I've observed, I really only see a lot of people of around my age group, that isn't really my fault, I don't spend my time with most adults as I find them to be simpletons who don't understand the grand scheme of things.

With that in mind I'll be happy to repeal my previous statements on predicting the population as a whole, replacing it of course with the population within the ages 14-18 years old. Which is still a relatively large amount of people.

With that I'm also going to say that what I said about being broad when I said a few years, should also be subjective to age groups. In some cases people are more susceptible to the damages of drugs on their life spans, the older age groups between 55 and older are worse off than someone in their 20's or 30's
That is why I said I was being broad, there is no time line you can create to exactly predict how many years a person has as every different person and every different age group is different. Though I do remember something about every cigarette taking 7 minutes off your life somewhere. Don't know if that's actually true but if it is I'd like to talk to the man that discovered that as a fact about how he came to that hypothesis.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Jwilson6 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:29 pm

I don't agree with any law meant to protect an individual from his own actions, and for that reason I cannot agree with any drug laws. I think drugs should be treated just like alcohol, you just can't do it in public where your actions could cause harm to other people. But as long as your doing it in your home or a designated area (such as a bar) where others have agreed to take the risk along with you, I think it should be legal.

That being said, I think marijuana definitely has an effect on your brain. But in the grand scheme of things I don't think its as bad as a lot of other things. I've seen people smoke marijuana for years and just one day quit cold turkey, never smoke again and go on to live long healthy productive lives.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:37 pm

-PLAGUE- wrote:Ugh, My friend you do have a LOT of time on your hands don't you?
Like I said, I've done it before. This discussion is old to me. I also type relatively fast.
-PLAGUE- wrote: Sigh, and this all based off of the assumption of IQ being affected negatively by marijuana.

I just don't see it being possible for smoking NOT to affect the brain negatively, breathing in fumes is not good for you.
That depends on the fumes.
-PLAGUE- wrote: If what your saying in that last statement means that the brain has some way of seperating the oxygen from the fumes your wrong, because the proof is in the effects of the drugs itself, to be high is basically proving that the drug is disorienting your brain, causing all of your brains normal functions to be disoriented.
I thought it was obvious that drugs MUST affect the brain for that reason.
It's not because it has an effect on your brain that there are negative side-effects. If you happen to like being disoriented and such then there are no negative side-effects whatsoever. (Possibly, I'm not 100% certain of that myself)
-PLAGUE- wrote: And if they do shouldn't it also be obvious that something that dulls your nerves and disorients your brains ability to function will in the long run cause serious damage?
Not really. There are many things that negatively affect your orientation and cognitive abilities, many of which do not cause long term damage.
BTW, I could focus on "dulls your nerves", but I won't. I'll consider it a figure of speech.

You know, this is exactly why we have scientists.
-PLAGUE- wrote: I mean spout off all of the studies you want but it all just boils down to common sense.
No, it most certainly does not. Many scientific facts are contra-intuitive.
We could have a completely separate discussion about "common sense" and in my opinion "common sense" is a myth of which the very concept of fallacious.

-PLAGUE- wrote: Idk what all that was about cancer, were not even talking about cancer.
We were talking about life span. Cancer is one of the leading causes of death.

-PLAGUE- wrote: You made a good point however I have to admit on the people of whom I've observed, I really only see a lot of people of around my age group, that isn't really my fault, I don't spend my time with most adults as I find them to be simpletons who don't understand the grand scheme of things.
Of course it's not your fault. (no sarcasm) It's also not your fault that you have all these fallacies and cognitive biases in your brain. We all have those. Thanks to the scientific method tho we (as a species that is) often manage to cancel these out.
-PLAGUE- wrote: With that in mind I'll be happy to repeal my previous statements on predicting the population as a whole, replacing it of course with the population within the ages 14-18 years old. Which is still a relatively large amount of people.
Indeed. And I think we can all agree that using drugs or any mind-altering substance in school will (most likely, generally) adversely affect academic performance. This is however not inherent to simply Marijuana.
-PLAGUE- wrote: With that I'm also going to say that what I said about being broad when I said a few years, should also be subjective to age groups. In some cases people are more susceptible to the damages of drugs on their life spans, the older age groups between 55 and older are worse off than someone in their 20's or 30's
That is why I said I was being broad, there is no time line you can create to exactly predict how many years a person has as every different person and every different age group is different. Though I do remember something about every cigarette taking 7 minutes off your life somewhere. Don't know if that's actually true but if it is I'd like to talk to the man that discovered that as a fact about how he came to that hypothesis.
I won't argue against the suggestion that smoking is bad, even tho some research suggests the positive effects of THC might cancel the dangers of smoking out. I'd say that to be on the safe side one shouldn't smoke anything. Save for bacon perhaps. And salmon.


Jwilson6 wrote:I don't agree with any law meant to protect an individual from his own actions, and for that reason I cannot agree with any drug laws. I think drugs should be treated just like alcohol, you just can't do it in public where your actions could cause harm to other people. But as long as your doing it in your home or a designated area (such as a bar) where others have agreed to take the risk along with you, I think it should be legal.

That being said, I think marijuana definitely has an effect on your brain. But in the grand scheme of things I don't think its as bad as a lot of other things. I've seen people smoke marijuana for years and just one day quit cold turkey, never smoke again and go on to live long healthy productive lives.
This'll be a dangerous statement... But here goes nothing.

Even if you don't abuse drugs in public you're still hurting society. I'm generally supportive of illegitimating hard drugs for this very reason.
However I do feel that this issue, more perhaps than any other, requires rehabilitation and medical/psychiatric care and not repression.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:01 pm

MadAce wrote:
-PLAGUE- wrote:Ugh, My friend you do have a LOT of time on your hands don't you?
Like I said, I've done it before. This discussion is old to me. I also type relatively fast.
-PLAGUE- wrote: Sigh, and this all based off of the assumption of IQ being affected negatively by marijuana.

I just don't see it being possible for smoking NOT to affect the brain negatively, breathing in fumes is not good for you.
That depends on the fumes.
-PLAGUE- wrote: If what your saying in that last statement means that the brain has some way of seperating the oxygen from the fumes your wrong, because the proof is in the effects of the drugs itself, to be high is basically proving that the drug is disorienting your brain, causing all of your brains normal functions to be disoriented.
I thought it was obvious that drugs MUST affect the brain for that reason.
It's not because it has an effect on your brain that there are negative side-effects. If you happen to like being disoriented and such then there are no negative side-effects whatsoever. (Possibly, I'm not 100% certain of that myself)
-PLAGUE- wrote: And if they do shouldn't it also be obvious that something that dulls your nerves and disorients your brains ability to function will in the long run cause serious damage?
Not really. There are many things that negatively affect your orientation and cognitive abilities, many of which do not cause long term damage.
BTW, I could focus on "dulls your nerves", but I won't. I'll consider it a figure of speech.

You know, this is exactly why we have scientists.
-PLAGUE- wrote: I mean spout off all of the studies you want but it all just boils down to common sense.
No, it most certainly does not. Many scientific facts are contra-intuitive.
We could have a completely separate discussion about "common sense" and in my opinion "common sense" is a myth of which the very concept of fallacious.

-PLAGUE- wrote: Idk what all that was about cancer, were not even talking about cancer.
We were talking about life span. Cancer is one of the leading causes of death.

-PLAGUE- wrote: You made a good point however I have to admit on the people of whom I've observed, I really only see a lot of people of around my age group, that isn't really my fault, I don't spend my time with most adults as I find them to be simpletons who don't understand the grand scheme of things.
Of course it's not your fault. (no sarcasm) It's also not your fault that you have all these fallacies and cognitive biases in your brain. We all have those. Thanks to the scientific method tho we (as a species that is) often manage to cancel these out.
-PLAGUE- wrote: With that in mind I'll be happy to repeal my previous statements on predicting the population as a whole, replacing it of course with the population within the ages 14-18 years old. Which is still a relatively large amount of people.
Indeed. And I think we can all agree that using drugs or any mind-altering substance in school will (most likely, generally) adversely affect academic performance. This is however not inherent to simply Marijuana.
-PLAGUE- wrote: With that I'm also going to say that what I said about being broad when I said a few years, should also be subjective to age groups. In some cases people are more susceptible to the damages of drugs on their life spans, the older age groups between 55 and older are worse off than someone in their 20's or 30's
That is why I said I was being broad, there is no time line you can create to exactly predict how many years a person has as every different person and every different age group is different. Though I do remember something about every cigarette taking 7 minutes off your life somewhere. Don't know if that's actually true but if it is I'd like to talk to the man that discovered that as a fact about how he came to that hypothesis.
I won't argue against the suggestion that smoking is bad, even tho some research suggests the positive effects of THC might cancel the dangers of smoking out. I'd say that to be on the safe side one shouldn't smoke anything. Save for bacon perhaps. And salmon.


Jwilson6 wrote:I don't agree with any law meant to protect an individual from his own actions, and for that reason I cannot agree with any drug laws. I think drugs should be treated just like alcohol, you just can't do it in public where your actions could cause harm to other people. But as long as your doing it in your home or a designated area (such as a bar) where others have agreed to take the risk along with you, I think it should be legal.

That being said, I think marijuana definitely has an effect on your brain. But in the grand scheme of things I don't think its as bad as a lot of other things. I've seen people smoke marijuana for years and just one day quit cold turkey, never smoke again and go on to live long healthy productive lives.
This'll be a dangerous statement... But here goes nothing.

Even if you don't abuse drugs in public you're still hurting society. I'm generally supportive of illegitimating hard drugs for this very reason.
However I do feel that this issue, more perhaps than any other, requires rehabilitation and medical/psychiatric care and not repression.
In that last statement about jwilsons post do you mean to say that even though the person abusing drugs isn't directly harming people in the society it is harming the society itself because of the amount of people that might do it?

Like ( and this is just a way to explain myself) If one person does drugs and it messes up their life its not harming society but if a great many people were too do the same thing society would be negatively affected and thus technically harmed?

I'm sorry about the sketchy explanation, often exceptional minds have a difficult time trying to make into words whats going on in their head. Reading a bunch about Einstien taught me that. Some things we think about are absolutely revolutionary but we just can't find the words to explain them to others at times.

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Caia
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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Caia » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:57 am

Pot is pretty harmless. Hell, I think they should legalize all drugs and let social darwinism take its course.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Barefoot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:07 am

Jwilson6 wrote:I don't agree with any law meant to protect an individual from his own actions, and for that reason I cannot agree with any drug laws. I think drugs should be treated just like alcohol, you just can't do it in public where your actions could cause harm to other people. But as long as your doing it in your home or a designated area (such as a bar) where others have agreed to take the risk along with you, I think it should be legal.

That being said, I think marijuana definitely has an effect on your brain. But in the grand scheme of things I don't think its as bad as a lot of other things. I've seen people smoke marijuana for years and just one day quit cold turkey, never smoke again and go on to live long healthy productive lives.
I was going to post my 2 cents, but then I saw that Jwilson posted the EXACT same thing I would have posted.

Distribute it, tax it, and regulate it like alcohol.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:00 am

Dave34 wrote:Tobacco will kill you faster before weed will.
If weed is legalized the same law's for drunkenness should be applied to weed.

I mean if someone's smoking pot in there room alone, what harm does it do?
Tobacco kills you faster than weed.
If weed is legalized it should have laws resembling that of alcohol.

No harm in smoking pot alone.

Is what you meant to say :P

Except of course for the harm to themselves.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Barefoot » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:08 am

Cloud1 wrote: how do I double quote people lol. That is reason why I double post .
Only way I know how to do it is to click quote, then highlight and copy that person's quote. Then press the back button and click on quote for the 2nd person. Then paste the first quote under it. I wish I knew of a better way... :(

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Jwilson6 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:14 am

Cloud1 wrote:
Dave34 wrote:Tobacco will kill you faster before weed will.
If weed is legalized the same law's for drunkenness should be applied to weed.

I mean if someone's smoking pot in there room alone, what harm does it do?

Drunkenness is worse then being high.

When drunk your emotions of anger increase also your fear is decreased.

The high you are more paranoid, increased fear, more worried etc.
Lol I can't even count the number of times I've woken up after being black-out drunk with cuts and bruises all over me, afraid to walk outside for fear or embarrassment of what i did the night before and who might remember it. The worst thats ever happened when I was high was waking up to find all my food cooked in unique but not entirely disqusting creations.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by Jwilson6 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:16 am

Barefoot wrote:
Cloud1 wrote: how do I double quote people lol. That is reason why I double post .
Only way I know how to do it is to click quote, then highlight and copy that person's quote. Then press the back button and click on quote for the 2nd person. Then paste the first quote under it. I wish I knew of a better way... :(
thats how you used to do it. But I've just recently noticed a change (I'm not sure when it came about) where you can now go down to the topic review section below where your typing your response out like this. And click the quote buttons down there. You can press as many as you want. and create as many different quote boxes.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by -PLAGUE- » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:40 am

Dave34 wrote:
Cloud1 wrote:you wanna share that personal experience :)
I'll give you a hint: "spontaneous anger"
Meaning Dave randomly beat the snot out of some old lady that needed help walking across the street. :shock:

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by MadAce » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:57 am

-PLAGUE- wrote:
In that last statement about jwilsons post do you mean to say that even though the person abusing drugs isn't directly harming people in the society it is harming the society itself because of the amount of people that might do it?

Like ( and this is just a way to explain myself) If one person does drugs and it messes up their life its not harming society but if a great many people were too do the same thing society would be negatively affected and thus technically harmed?

I'm sorry about the sketchy explanation, often exceptional minds have a difficult time trying to make into words whats going on in their head. Reading a bunch about Einstien taught me that. Some things we think about are absolutely revolutionary but we just can't find the words to explain them to others at times.
No, not really. Even if there's only one single person abusing drugs and wasting their lives in that way it still harms society.

Every percentage matters, every human life matters.
Cloud1 wrote:
I lost many Iq points from smoking pot and short term memory loss.

Any kind of smoke affects the lungs. I did get a chest infection from smoking.

I'm not sure if weed was the cause of dropping out of grade 9 or it was the divorce of my parents but i think it was both..

When you are high you lack to do any homework, If you smoke everyday that is.


\http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1808

" Pot, weed, grass, ganja and skunk, are some of the common words used to describe the dried leaves drug known as marijuana. Marijuana is a cannabis plant that is "usually smoked or eaten to entice euphoria." (1). Throughout the years, there has been research on the negative and positive effects of marijuana on the human body and the brain. Marijuana is frequently beneficial to the treatment of AIDS, cancer, glaucoma, multiple sclerosis, and chronic pain. However, researchers such as Jacques-Joseph Moreau have been working to explain how marijuana has harmful affects on the functions of central nervous system and hinders the memory and movement of the user's brain. The focus of my web paper is how the chemicals in marijuana, specifically cannabinoids and THC have an effect on the memory and emotions of a person's central nervous system. "
Show me the before and after IQ tests and I'll believe you.

And I agree that using drugs in school is a bad idea.

Dave34 wrote:
People choose to smoke weed, they know the consequences, and they don't care, these are the same people that say: "you gotta die some day."
People who use drugs, and especially not those who abuse it often don't fully realize the consequences. If they would, no one would use tobacco, alcohol or any other hard drug.


People are notoriously bad at judging probabilities.

Dave34 wrote: I however don't want to die drowning in my own vomit lol.
This doesn't happen because of Marijuana.

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by mcdfatty » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:40 pm

ugh i hate it when they smoke it on the back of the bus

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Re: California Proposition 19: Legalizing Weed

Post by LordSturm » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:16 pm

it would be difficult to prove what kind of damage marijuana does based on a completely observational study, because generally speaking the kinds of people who take drugs are already (generally speaking) more apt to not care about school, their futures etc.

its kind of like the arguement that video games make people violent. its not something you can really prove because not only are there hundreds of studies supporting each side, people who are violent and play violent video games most likely had these violent attributes and just naturally gravitate to games that allow them to carry out those violent actions.

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