P5 debates

[LordSturm]

any physics buffs this is for you. what is the law in physics that in order for something to be able to affect the objects around it. it must have mass? its something like that or along those lines i think.

[JuliusCaesar]

Odd topic to post that quesiton in. Not sure, sounds like you are garbling one of newton's three laws of motion though. Just started physics a week ago so im not sure.

[Mel'Kaven]

any physics buffs this is for you. what is the law in physics that in order for something to be able to affect the objects around it. it must have mass? its something like that or along those lines i think.

For anything of matter to effect anything of matter it must be matter. Its like 'like terms' and by default to physically be something you have mass. The only 'thing' that does not have mass is energy, as that is just a measurement of particle movement within the atom itself.

[JesusRocks765]

Who is brainwashing you to think the Catholic Church is evil?
No one, i made my own judgements. When i was younger I was given a couple books, one on catholicism (my dad's faith) and one on the eastern orthodox church (my mother's heritage, yet she doesn't believe it, and no we haven't talked about it). I read each, and found them to be full of nonsense. Oh, and I never said the catholic church was evil. You can be delusional all you like, just don't shove it down mine, or anyone else's throats.
Too bad your parents never really taught you the faith, it explains your lack of knowledge on the Subject of the Catholic Church.
How can you call my Catholic Views narrow minded?
YOU are right. YOUR way of life is right. Everyone else is wrong, sinning, and if they don't apoligize for not living the way you think it should be, they will go to hell. Basically all you have told us so far.
My Faith is helping people all over the World and Bringing people to Heaven, your athiesm is satisfying your personal lack of Faith.

You want facts, heres plenty:

The Catholic Church is The Largest Charity in the World
I don't know about that, If you have a source I'd like to see it.

Look it up, I could only find online results for america here http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 778004.htm
Looks like my Catholic friends all the way over in america are doing well

The Catholic Church is very against abortion and stem cell research (anything that kills babies)
And as for abortion, that is a woman's choice. Your specific christian morals should have no bearing on what a woman of a different, or even the same belief system does.

I see that supporting the killing of babies goes hand in hand with abolishing morality and losing your faith, athiesm is taking away the Morality of the world

The Catholic Church Has numerous Missions in Africa, so any time you ask "Why isnt God helping the Kids in Africa?" You are wrong; God's Teachings have led to Catholic
Missions and Charities feeding and educating the poor and Sick.
Great. I think its great that people can try to help and do their part. But for every person actually doing hands-on relief work, there are dozens more "praying" that help is done, and taking credit rom the people actually helping, and giving it to their imaginary friend. Also, there are plenty of ways the catholic church is in the way of progess, and has hampered human rights over the years, we have listed them already in like 3 different threads. Plus, there are plenty of non-denominational charities doing work as well. Being helpful isn't STRICTLY a catholic trait. Even the motives of catholic relief work is dubious, to be quite frank. It isnt like they are expanding their follower base in doing so. And I have always been taught that character is what you do when no one is looking, no one guiding oneself. I don't have someone looking over me constantly making me do the right things, but apparantly you need someone there.

You call the Missionaries in Africa who spend their lives saving starving people dubious? What have your fellow athiests done? I haven't heard of athiests helping anyone but themselves, Seems like when Religion is removed, greed and sin prospers

The Catholic Church was Started by Jesus, no wonder it is so Great!
If i wanted to worship carpenters i'd become a builder.

And if you want to go to Heaven, Worship Jesus, but apparently you dont want to so you'll never be with him.

The Catholic Church opposes wars and Violence and supports freedom.
Not really. The catholic church was a dominant political and military force until they were defeated in a military conflict in the middle ages.

Notice how I used the Present Tense? You are looking at a brief history of corruption resulting from 1 greedy pope, not the Holy Splendor of the Catholic Church today; your statement here is invalid

The Catholic Church Is the Oldest and Largest Denomination of Christianity.
The greek pantheon, judaism, egyptian pantheon, and countless more religions are older, many older religions are still in practice today as well.

Greek idols aren't Christian, Jews aren't Christian, egyptian idols aren't Christian, and countable older religions are also not Christian, Read what I am saying and quit making a fool of yourself.

By following the Catholic Church, I am Happy, One of Billions of Fellow Catholics, and am Going to Heaven.
There aren't "billions" or catholics. In anycase that is a logical fallacy. Just because many people believe it doesn't mean it is true. We all thought the earth was the center of the universe once, still think that? To be fair, it took the church a few centuries to reconsider that "fact."

You might be surprised that there are, In fact, over 1 Billion Catholics, you need to start researching what you babble back at me http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=67164

If you want no part of Heaven then you will get no part of it.
If i wanted to believe in an idea of heaven, I'd be a muslim. 72 virgins ftw.

I thought you had a girlfriend...

Have a nice day
I have.
Seems more like a confused day

[Mel'Kaven]

Hey Jesus, go ahead and breakdown my post at the bottom of page 5. Yeah. That'd be nice.

[JesusRocks765]

I will later if I dont get spammed with Tons of crap from nine-breaker, LS, and JC - I only do 1 Mega-Breakup per day, no time to correct all your mistakes

Ill see you guys tomarrow for more arguing, It is quite fun

[nine-breaker]

any physics buffs this is for you. what is the law in physics that in order for something to be able to affect the objects around it. it must have mass? its something like that or along those lines i think.

Are you referring to the Law of Universal Gravity? All mass attracts every all other point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

Velocity when combined with mass increases the effects of gravity, depending on the rate of speed.

[-nox-]

Hmmmm read some more of jesusrocks' posts. Regret spending my time on this, aswell as ruining the future of major.arse's children.

[LordSturm]

any physics buffs this is for you. what is the law in physics that in order for something to be able to affect the objects around it. it must have mass? its something like that or along those lines i think.

Are you referring to the Law of Universal Gravity? All mass attracts every all other point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

Velocity when combined with mass increases the effects of gravity, depending on the rate of speed.

I might of been thinking of a law that is the other way around that an object must have mass in order for force to be able to be exerted on it. The point was that god would have to have mass etc in order to affect the environment around him. Been too long since I took physics and I can't remember the laws name

[MadAce]

I don't understand why everyone is so adamant about disproving or challenging JR's beliefs.

What he beliefs is irrelevant. All in all those are just a justification.

What worries me are his actions.

[nine-breaker]

I'm not trying to disprove anything, I'm trying to prove something. I believe that there are more powerful beings in the universe, however, I do not believe that those beings deserve the title of "God" most of all the christian god.

[JuliusCaesar]

Who is brainwashing you to think the Catholic Church is evil?

No one, i made my own judgements. When i was younger I was given a couple books, one on catholicism (my dad's faith) and one on the eastern orthodox church (my mother's heritage, yet she doesn't believe it, and no we haven't talked about it). I read each, and found them to be full of nonsense. Oh, and I never said the catholic church was evil. You can be delusional all you like, just don't shove it down mine, or anyone else's throats.
Too bad your parents never really taught you the faith, it explains your lack of knowledge on the Subject of the Catholic Church.
while i may not know as much about the catholic church as you do, i am very grateful for my opportunity to objectively view the world.

How can you call my Catholic Views narrow minded?

YOU are right. YOUR way of life is right. Everyone else is wrong, sinning, and if they don't apoligize for not living the way you think it should be, they will go to hell. Basically all you have told us so far.
My Faith is helping people all over the World and Bringing people to Heaven, your athiesm is satisfying your personal lack of Faith.
You haven't proven a heaven, so your statement is invalid. And atheism is defined as lacking belief in a god or gods. So yea?

You want facts, heres plenty:

The Catholic Church is The Largest Charity in the World

I don't know about that, If you have a source I'd like to see it.
Look it up, I could only find online results for america here http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 778004.htm
Looks like my Catholic friends all the way over in america are doing well
You said in the world. This is only for the US. Interestingly enough the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation (both of whom are atheists) IS the largest TRANSPARENT charity in the WORLD

The Catholic Church is very against abortion and stem cell research (anything that kills babies)

And as for abortion, that is a woman's choice. Your specific christian morals should have no bearing on what a woman of a different, or even the same belief system does. Meant to say this, must have forgotten, but to harvest and partake in stem cell research no longer requires dead fetus spinal fluid. That condemnation of stem cell research is either outdated, or ignorant. In any event it hampers progress (not like the church hasnt done that one before).
I see that supporting the killing of babies goes hand in hand with abolishing morality and losing your faith, athiesm is taking away (I'd LOVE to see your sources on this point)the Morality of the world
I don't suppprt killing babies. I support a woman being able to abort a fetus if she so chooses. Morality and faith are most certainly not mutually dependant. Hitler had faith, how were his morals? There are plenty of atheists who have done outstanding deeds, and plenty who have done horrible deeds. The same goes with christians In general, however, I believe that a firm religious conviction like yours actually retards moral development. Ever hear of Kohlberg's moral ladder? This is taken from my psychology textbook btw. Kohlberg decided to test the theory that children's moral judgements build on their cognitive development. To do this he presented a series of morals dilemmas to children, adolescents, and adults (ie is it ok to steal medicine to save a loved one's life). The experiment showed three levels of developing morality:

1) Preconventional morality: before age nine most children have a basic morality centered around self interest. They obey to avoid punishment or gain concrete rewards.

2) Conventional morality: By adolescence morality reaches a level where the individual cares for other people and upholds laws and social rules simply because they are laws and rules.

3) Postconventional morality: some of those who develop the abstract reasoning of formal operational thought may come to this third level (note, MAY come). This stage affirms people's agreed upon rights or follows what one perceives as basic ethical principles.

From your arguments, and the very principles your religion is based, it is clear that the more fundamental christians such as yourself have not fully developed into moral beings. You are moral to a point, for three reasons. Do this and go to heaven (or if not, hell, preconventional morality, selfish), and I should follow this because it is expected of me, they are the rules (conventional morality, follow the crowd). I make my own judgements on moral matters because at least they have some concepts of justice and fairness.

The Catholic Church Has numerous Missions in Africa, so any time you ask "Why isnt God helping the Kids in Africa?" You are wrong; God's Teachings have led to Catholic
Missions and Charities feeding and educating the poor and Sick.

Great. I think its great that people can try to help and do their part. But for every person actually doing hands-on relief work, there are dozens more "praying" that help is done, and taking credit rom the people actually helping, and giving it to their imaginary friend. Also, there are plenty of ways the catholic church is in the way of progess, and has hampered human rights over the years, we have listed them already in like 3 different threads. Plus, there are plenty of non-denominational charities doing work as well. Being helpful isn't STRICTLY a catholic trait. Even the motives of catholic relief work is dubious, to be quite frank. It isnt like they are expanding their follower base in doing so. And I have always been taught that character is what you do when no one is looking, no one guiding oneself. I don't have someone looking over me constantly making me do the right things, but apparantly you need someone there.
You call the Missionaries in Africa who spend their lives saving starving people dubious? What have your fellow athiests done? I haven't heard of athiests helping anyone but themselves, Seems like when Religion is removed, greed and sin prospers
See Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and my point on morality and religion not being mutually dependant.

The Catholic Church was Started by Jesus, no wonder it is so Great!

If i wanted to worship carpenters i'd become a builder.
And if you want to go to Heaven, Worship Jesus, but apparently you dont want to so you'll never be with him.
There isn't a heaven, and deifying people is inherently dangerous.

The Catholic Church opposes wars and Violence and supports freedom.

Not really. The catholic church was a dominant political and military force until they were defeated in a military conflict in the middle ages.
Notice how I used the Present Tense? You are looking at a brief history of corruption resulting from 1 greedy pope, not the Holy Splendor of the Catholic Church today; your statement here is invalid
Ok then, tell me how they are promoting international peace right now. What are they doing?

The Catholic Church Is the Oldest and Largest Denomination of Christianity.

The greek pantheon, judaism, egyptian pantheon, and countless more religions are older (I said religions, not denominations, are older), many older religions are still in practice today as well.
Greek idols aren't Christian, Jews aren't Christian, egyptian idols aren't Christian, and countable older religions are also not Christian, Read what I am saying and quit making a fool of yourself.
You missed my entire point. Just because something is old, doesn't make it right or factual. And how does being christianity being christianity make it more valid than the OLDER religions before it (hell, you used the appeal to age as a suppprt, you probably have some suppprt to counteract your first assumption, right?) And i know that those other RELIGIONS are not DENOMINATIONS of chrsitianity, do you?. In any case being older does not make it right, on a denominational scale or on a world-religion scale

By following the Catholic Church, I am Happy, One of Billions of Fellow Catholics, and am Going to Heaven.

There aren't "billions" or catholics. In anycase that is a logical fallacy. Just because many people believe it doesn't mean it is true. We all thought the earth was the center of the universe once, still think that? To be fair, it took the church a few centuries to reconsider that "fact."
You might be surprised that there are, In fact, over 1 Billion Catholics, you need to start researching what you babble back at me http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=67164
Can you read beyond a third grade level? that source says a little over ONE billion (not billions) christians, that is, all denominations. Your source on the catholic church being the largest "global" charity (which it wasn't, you can't even get proper sources to support yourself) said there were only 64 million CATHOLICS world wide. Personally i'm surprised, thought there were more. And hey, if there are more, shows how valid your sources are.

If you want no part of Heaven then you will get no part of it.

If i wanted to believe in an idea of heaven, I'd be a muslim. 72 virgins ftw.
I thought you had a girlfriend...
I do, and it was a joke. I don't believe in any of that anyway remember?

Have a nice day

I have.
Seems more like a confused day
You seem to be confused as to who is confused.

[Edit] I am most gratified you have finally started debating in a somewhat structured format, it allows all points to be answered and none ignored. I do however ask that you refrain from using logical fallcies, as they are not valid and weaken your position. some you commonly use are:

Straw man; distract from a topic by making an unrelated statement
Circular logic; justify something by another statement which verifies another statement which verifies the first statement, ie, a->b->c->a
Argument by numbers: Because x-amount of people believe this, it must be true, also applies to time, because this was believed for x-years, it must be true.

These are all not factual and are dismissable points.

[LordSturm]

ewtn is so dangerously corrupt its not even funny. On multiple occasions i have watched their programming for upwards of an hour and they spent the entire time telling its viewers who to elect or support for the various elections. and talking about other political stuff. they spent maybe 10 minutes spreading "the good word".

clearly if a program spends more time trying to be fox news and less time preaching they should loose their status as a instrument of the church. (unless the catholic church wishes to go back to controlling much of the known world's military and political power)

[JuliusCaesar]

ewtn is so dangerously corrupt its not even funny. On multiple occasions i have watched their programming for upwards of an hour and they spent the entire time telling its viewers who to elect or support for the various elections. and talking about other political stuff. they spent maybe 10 minutes spreading "the good word".

clearly if a program spends more time trying to be fox news and less time preaching they should loose their status as a instrument of the church. (unless the catholic church wishes to go back to controlling much of the known world's military and political power)

Seems they do a lot of what i warn about, and what JR discounts.

[JesusRocks765]

Should I breask down mel'kaven's or JC's argument?

[JuliusCaesar]

Both.

[JesusRocks765]

No, Im not wasting that much time; these are works of art that take a long time to perfect, I will do one per day.

[JuliusCaesar]

Took me ten minutes between latin homework.

[JesusRocks765]

And you did sloppy work and didnt look up facts; I get every point perfect

I have crap to do, I'll try to break yours up later jc

[JuliusCaesar]

And you did sloppy work and didnt look up facts; I get every point perfect

Thanks for proving you have yet to read through my response yet. You screwed up reading your own sources at least three times.

[JesusRocks765]

Who is brainwashing you to think the Catholic Church is evil?

No one, i made my own judgements. When i was younger I was given a couple books, one on catholicism (my dad's faith) and one on the eastern orthodox church (my mother's heritage, yet she doesn't believe it, and no we haven't talked about it). I read each, and found them to be full of nonsense. Oh, and I never said the catholic church was evil. You can be delusional all you like, just don't shove it down mine, or anyone else's throats.
Too bad your parents never really taught you the faith, it explains your lack of knowledge on the Subject of the Catholic Church.
while i may not know as much about the catholic church as you do, i am very grateful for my opportunity to objectively view the world.
It is truly a shame that you were not given a proper Catholic Education; I am sorry that happened but hopefully you can still see the Truth.

How can you call my Catholic Views narrow minded?

YOU are right. YOUR way of life is right. Everyone else is wrong, sinning, and if they don't apoligize for not living the way you think it should be, they will go to hell. Basically all you have told us so far.
My Faith is helping people all over the World and Bringing people to Heaven, your athiesm is satisfying your personal lack of Faith.
You haven't proven a heaven, so your statement is invalid. And atheism is defined as lacking belief in a god or gods. So yea?
I dont need to prove Heaven to the heathen to go there, whether you believe in God or not is your decision and you get the consequenses of your actions.

You want facts, heres plenty:

The Catholic Church is The Largest Charity in the World

I don't know about that, If you have a source I'd like to see it.
Look it up, I could only find online results for america here http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 778004.htm
Looks like my Catholic friends all the way over in america are doing well
You said in the world. This is only for the US. Interestingly enough the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation (both of whom are atheists) IS the largest TRANSPARENT charity in the WORLD
According to wikipedia, he is agnostic, not athiest, looks like you're the one who needs to check your sources. Bill gates may have more money, but the Catholic Church is by far more helpful worldwide, with missionaries helping people in Africa, Asia, India, and the Americas, we are doing more and helping more people than any other organization.

The Catholic Church is very against abortion and stem cell research (anything that kills babies)

And as for abortion, that is a woman's choice. Your specific christian morals should have no bearing on what a woman of a different, or even the same belief system does. Meant to say this, must have forgotten, but to harvest and partake in stem cell research no longer requires dead fetus spinal fluid. That condemnation of stem cell research is either outdated, or ignorant. In any event it hampers progress (not like the church hasnt done that one before).
I see that supporting the killing of babies goes hand in hand with abolishing morality and losing your faith, athiesm is taking away (I'd LOVE to see your sources on this point)the Morality of the world
I don't suppprt killing babies. I support a woman being able to abort a fetus if she so chooses. Morality and faith are most certainly not mutually dependant. Hitler had faith, how were his morals? There are plenty of atheists who have done outstanding deeds, and plenty who have done horrible deeds. The same goes with christians In general, however, I believe that a firm religious conviction like yours actually retards moral development. Ever hear of Kohlberg's moral ladder? This is taken from my psychology textbook btw. Kohlberg decided to test the theory that children's moral judgements build on their cognitive development. To do this he presented a series of morals dilemmas to children, adolescents, and adults (ie is it ok to steal medicine to save a loved one's life). The experiment showed three levels of developing morality:

1) Preconventional morality: before age nine most children have a basic morality centered around self interest. They obey to avoid punishment or gain concrete rewards.

2) Conventional morality: By adolescence morality reaches a level where the individual cares for other people and upholds laws and social rules simply because they are laws and rules.

3) Postconventional morality: some of those who develop the abstract reasoning of formal operational thought may come to this third level (note, MAY come). This stage affirms people's agreed upon rights or follows what one perceives as basic ethical principles.

From your arguments, and the very principles your religion is based, it is clear that the more fundamental christians such as yourself have not fully developed into moral beings. You are moral to a point, for three reasons. Do this and go to heaven (or if not, hell, preconventional morality, selfish), and I should follow this because it is expected of me, they are the rules (conventional morality, follow the crowd). I make my own judgements on moral matters because at least they have some concepts of justice and fairness.

I am aware of and support the newer Stem cells from audult human skin cells and such, that is why I said "(anything that kills babies)" is what I oppose.
as for you trying to show my Care for human life as childish, it only proves my point of your degraded morality, in fact it has degraded too far for you to even see.


The Catholic Church Has numerous Missions in Africa, so any time you ask "Why isnt God helping the Kids in Africa?" You are wrong; God's Teachings have led to Catholic
Missions and Charities feeding and educating the poor and Sick.

Great. I think its great that people can try to help and do their part. But for every person actually doing hands-on relief work, there are dozens more "praying" that help is done, and taking credit rom the people actually helping, and giving it to their imaginary friend. Also, there are plenty of ways the catholic church is in the way of progess, and has hampered human rights over the years, we have listed them already in like 3 different threads. Plus, there are plenty of non-denominational charities doing work as well. Being helpful isn't STRICTLY a catholic trait. Even the motives of catholic relief work is dubious, to be quite frank. It isnt like they are expanding their follower base in doing so. And I have always been taught that character is what you do when no one is looking, no one guiding oneself. I don't have someone looking over me constantly making me do the right things, but apparantly you need someone there.
You call the Missionaries in Africa who spend their lives saving starving people dubious? What have your fellow athiests done? I haven't heard of athiests helping anyone but themselves, Seems like when Religion is removed, greed and sin prospers
See Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, and my point on morality and religion not being mutually dependant.
That is one morally good agnostic, you have yet to show me one helpful and morally good athiest. ALL Catholics are taught to be charitable and Kind, and as a result, most Catholics are anti-violent and kind people in general, I'd be willing to bet that the Average Catholic is a nicer person than the average athiest.


The Catholic Church was Started by Jesus, no wonder it is so Great!

If i wanted to worship carpenters i'd become a builder.
And if you want to go to Heaven, Worship Jesus, but apparently you dont want to so you'll never be with him.
There isn't a heaven, and deifying people is inherently dangerous.
There is a Heaven, but you dont Believe in it, regardless of our conflicting beliefs, I can defy you, or anyone I want, as I am - if you are suggesting that I never defy/oppose anyone, I find that laughable, but I suspect you may have meant something else by "deifying people is inherently dangerous" if so, be more specific


The Catholic Church opposes wars and Violence and supports freedom.

Not really. The catholic church was a dominant political and military force until they were defeated in a military conflict in the middle ages.
Notice how I used the Present Tense? You are looking at a brief history of corruption resulting from 1 greedy pope, not the Holy Splendor of the Catholic Church today; your statement here is invalid
Ok then, tell me how they are promoting international peace right now. What are they doing?
Thank you very much for asking, currently we are opposing suicide, homicide, abortion, and heres a link of our Fellow Christian brothers uniting with us to Promote Peace http://www.catholiccourier.com/news/loc ... ote-peace/



The Catholic Church Is the Oldest and Largest Denomination of Christianity.

The greek pantheon, judaism, egyptian pantheon, and countless more religions are older (I said religions, not denominations, are older), many older religions are still in practice today as well.
Greek idols aren't Christian, Jews aren't Christian, egyptian idols aren't Christian, and countable older religions are also not Christian, Read what I am saying and quit making a fool of yourself.
You missed my entire point. Just because something is old, doesn't make it right or factual. And how does being christianity being christianity make it more valid than the OLDER religions before it (hell, you used the appeal to age as a suppprt, you probably have some suppprt to counteract your first assumption, right?) And i know that those other RELIGIONS are not DENOMINATIONS of chrsitianity, do you?. In any case being older does not make it right, on a denominational scale or on a world-religion scale
Oh dont start here, Age means nothing, I am just pointing out how we are the Original Christian Church, Our Faith, Unity, Kind Beliefs, Faith in Christ, and Peace knowing that we will go to Heaven after Death are the reasons to Join, not the fact that we are 2000 years old.


By following the Catholic Church, I am Happy, One of Billions of Fellow Catholics, and am Going to Heaven.

There aren't "billions" or catholics. In anycase that is a logical fallacy. Just because many people believe it doesn't mean it is true. We all thought the earth was the center of the universe once, still think that? To be fair, it took the church a few centuries to reconsider that "fact."
You might be surprised that there are, In fact, over 1 Billion Catholics, you need to start researching what you babble back at me http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=67164
Can you read beyond a third grade level? that source says a little over ONE billion (not billions) christians, that is, all denominations. Your source on the catholic church being the largest "global" charity (which it wasn't, you can't even get proper sources to support yourself) said there were only 64 million CATHOLICS world wide. Personally i'm surprised, thought there were more. And hey, if there are more, shows how valid your sources are.
I made your incorrect statement Black, reading the Headline says CATHOLIC, if you are talking about all Christians, we are about 1/3 of the World Population, over 2 BILLION. I didn't mean 2 Billion Catholics alone, I meant 1.1 Billion, as for my Sources, The Vatican's Records dont seem to be online, so I went with the first seemingly correct source, Hopefully it was fully correct, but you got my main point. Insulting my intelligence in an incorrect post is Hilarious, but Im gonna keep this discussion Flame-Free as I suggest you do


If you want no part of Heaven then you will get no part of it.

If i wanted to believe in an idea of heaven, I'd be a muslim. 72 virgins ftw.
I thought you had a girlfriend...
I do, and it was a joke. I don't believe in any of that anyway remember?
Your denial of Heaven is your own loss.

Have a nice day

I have.
Seems more like a confused day
You seem to be confused as to who is confused.
Hopefully your next posts are correct so that you arent confused anymore, feel free to point out any errors I made, but I understand every concept here

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[Edit] I am most gratified you have finally started debating in a somewhat structured format, it allows all points to be answered and none ignored. I do however ask that you refrain from using logical fallcies, as they are not valid and weaken your position. some you commonly use are:

Straw man; distract from a topic by making an unrelated statement
Circular logic; justify something by another statement which verifies another statement which verifies the first statement, ie, a->b->c->a
Argument by numbers: Because x-amount of people believe this, it must be true, also applies to time, because this was believed for x-years, it must be true.

These are all not factual and are dismissable points.

If this structured format appeals to you, I will use it more often, Hopefully I can open your mind more to Catholicism because at the moment you seem to have a negatively Biased Point of view to a Great and Holy Organization, I am glad we can finally debate on an organized level. I await your response and expect it to be less personally condescending, Post your facts and don't attack me or my Beliefs or We will be back right where we started - a flame war.

[LordSturm]

ill answer that deifying part. he didnt mean or say defy ( to go against,rebel) he said deify (to view/worship as a god). he was saying it is dangerous to believe a meer human is a god. or alteast i think that was his point.

[JuliusCaesar]

I deviate from the set format because I am on an itouch, and i don't want to write a colored novel on a tiny keyboard.

1) I am not sorry I was raised to be open minded.

2) I let your straw man logical fallcy distract me, I never said the catholic church did not help people (though, they only help certain kinds of people), I said your belief system was narrow minded.

3) Ok, so he is an agnostic, not an atheist. In any event that means he isn't a catholic, nor is the catholic church the largest charity in the world (even though it, apparantly, is part of the largest religion on the planet. so this means 1 billionaire, who rightfully earned every penny of that money with his own hardwork, out donates more than a billion catholics.). Also, who are you to say the catholic church's donations are more helpful? Are you asserting the catholic church's money is somehow more effective than where Bill Gates' money goes? Show me a source from a non-affiliated, unbiased source. Also, here is a short list of some atheist charities
http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... ities.html
keep in mind that is in no way complete, and although it is less money than the catholic church's contributions, there are a lot less of us atheists than catholics.

4) I have not called your regard for human life childish, i called your system of morals childish. Secondly one of the definitions of life is that it can sustain itself. Up until the fetus is birthed, it is totally dependant on the mother. If the mother dies, so does the baby (without intervention by modern medicine). I believe in the right to choose, not in killing babies. If the mother decides to abort the fetus (which is neither self aware, or alive) then i hold the living, sentient mother's judgment to be valid. Also, i'd love to see you prove me to have a degenerated sense of morality. The simple question of, "what is moral", has baffled philosophers for thousands of years. Your statement must be the greatest discovery in thousands of years to prove my morals are "degenerate" and wrong

5) See my above response. And i would take you up on that bet, however these are completely vague and untestable propositions, and i propose this point to be dropped since it cannot be logically considered.

6) This statement (the original one, the points have nothing backing them but our conflict) is logically invalid, I propose it be dropped. LS is right, i meant deifying people, not defying. Specific examples include my namesake. Rome's plebs were so appreciative of the Caesars that the emperors (and all later ones) were deified after death. This gave their authority a huge badge of religious support, as defying an emperor means you are defying a future god. The emperors were also the head religious figures in the roman religion, which further increased their power.

7) Your source supports that the church is ACTIVELY fighting "violence", as for promoting freedom and stopping wars, there is still no support.

as for opposing violence, I support this in the context of homicide, which is effectively denying a living, sentient being, their right to exist. however you already know my views on abortion, suicide also falls under that category.

8] Your statement contradicts your original point. Since you agree that age is irrelevant, your point should not have originally been made. I propose it be dropped.

9) It seems you are right and i am mistaken. there are over a billion catholics. However, an appeal to time is just as invalid as an appeal to population (both under the umbrella of appeals to numbers). Like the others, I propose this point be dropped.

10) irrelevant, drop

11) We have sent back pleasantries four times in a few different colors. Drop and assume its implied?

[JesusRocks765]

when you get back home, please transfer your debate to the original format, it is much more organized and helpful.

[JuliusCaesar]

mmhmm

[JesusRocks765]

Good, I will further contribute to this debate once you do that.

[MadAce]

Good, I will further contribute to this debate once you do that.

Oh, you've contributed before?


And was there a debate?

[JuliusCaesar]

The only thing worth debating at this point is morality. everything else is based on fallacies

[JesusRocks765]

Good, I will further contribute to this debate once you do that.

Oh, you've contributed before?


And was there a debate?

Yea man, look at the colored stuff - Im Blue and Balck, and JC is Green and Red.

[MadAce]

Good, I will further contribute to this debate once you do that.

Oh, you've contributed before?


And was there a debate?

Yea man, look at the colored stuff - Im Blue and Balck, and JC is Green and Red.

That's not a debate. That's enough stupidity to cause a permanent case of facepalm. A terminal case.