Out with the old - In with the new ?

General discussion of anything Starport related

Moderators: Moleman, Kwijibo, Luna

Post Reply
User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:01 pm

Kinda retired from Starport :( - however i sit here and watch y'all playing and see the concerns / ideas etc that are brought to the table for Toonces and Co to scrutinize and quite possibly implement into whats left of the game.
maybe this isn't meant for this section of the Forums - but kinda feel if anything is going to be looked at and scrutinized it would be on here - so here's an idea. :?

A large element of Gameplay has been lost due to bad additions - killing the skill and in some cases luck required in order to progress / achieve ones goal on here.

Had an idea a few months back and been sitting on it trying to " iron out " any possible criticism and concerns that would make it unthinkable to bring into Starport - it involves having a Ship Captain character.
By having a Ship Captain ( or Pilot ) on each Server when you login.
Once created, the character ( possibly starting at the age of 18 ) would have for example 10 different traits. ( all varying from zero on creation up to maximum 25 each ( level limit ))
Speed - enables ship to slightly fly faster with the increase of Speed level.
Direction - Turning ability slightly increased with level increase.
Braking - Stopping speed increased with level increase.
Invading - Shields and energy level increased as per level increase.
Building - Building cost and Construction time decreased with level increase.
Charisma - increases with level increase.
Dexterity - increases with level increase.
Wisdom - icreases with level increase.
Financial - enables greater wealth accumulation per colony with level increase.
Pollution - lower pollution issues with level increase.

On choosing your pilot you would have 10 free points which you could place on any of the 10 Pilots Statistics - ( for example 10 on Speed ) ( or 5 on Speed and 5 on Invading ).
You would Train your Pilot on a weekly basis, and through Luck his Stats would increase ( for example Speed +2 increase, Dexterity +1 increase, Financial +2 increase ) etc etc.
The Pilot would be swapped whenever you buy a new ship - however on destruction of ship ( through Invading or Battle ) The character would reset back to level zero and have to be re-trained as if a new Pilot.
Every month would incur an age increase ( 1st of the month ) to your Pilot. The Art would be having a 30 yr old Pilot with decent Stats - very few would exist.
This could provoke targetting Players - because of their Ship Pilot - which i think is totally missing from the current game. ( Ship Pilots CAN be seen on character Profile - and cannot be hidden). :twisted:
Personal opinion is Starport needs something new which would bring a new element of addiction and purpose to being careful when Building, invading and Fighting - the stats on your Pilot would increase the ease of Playing and also give benefits if you are a Builder OR Invader on an even and Luck basis .

Think this would be a great thought for Perma's, - to be honest i havent thought about how it would be used on rebangs or extendeds though. :(

Thoughts ?

User avatar
WeGotDeathStar
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:45 am
Location: Mr.Angry's House Drinking His Beer Watching Captain Kangaroo Re-runs

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by WeGotDeathStar » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:38 pm

Good ideas but what really killed the game was huge game changing modifications that were done game wide instead of a per server basis. Some love Mods, Some do not...different stokes so to say. Also the PvP aspect was squelched with the exp loss patch.....space fights are just a waste of time now because there is no reward for killing a high exp players. Getting a 100k from a person with 80 mil exp is just a waste of time. Plus the invading aspect of it, if you do stupid things and die then you should lose exp.

The exp patch made it so whoever was the top players on a server before the patch will remain that way until the server gets deleted. Thus nobody wants to put any real time into a older server cause they will never reach the top 10. I can say it used to be fun starting with nothing on a older server and thru invading/killing other players you could be in the top 10 in a few months. Now no incentive remains to put the work in.

OK broken record time, with all the game changes thru the years Golden Age remained the most popular server for this reason, it is the closest thing to the old game pre mod that we have available and that is what the players really want. Now all the other ideas that have been done were good ideas like the Fog Of War and Random Layouts but the older players just want the old game back, and we don't have the new players coming in and populating the other servers with the good ideas..FOW and Randoms so we are left with a stagnant situation with the same old people that have been playing for the last 5-7 years.

The only problem with the game at the moment is not enough of a player base, until it grows then any idea no matter how good will not bring back the player base to what it used to be.

User avatar
Caia
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by Caia » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:55 am

I could see this making the early game very very difficult. If you didn't have the shields or energy regen to effectively take colonies, you'd be forced into building. Which in turn would simply feed higher level players. I'm not saying it isn't doable, but without some very significant balancing I think it would do far more harm than good.

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:21 pm

Caia isn't it good that the beginning of the game be slightly more difficult ?
It's easy to throw someone 5 million and get them to invade a hostile corp as it is .. maybe bringing in an aspect of the game that makes it harder for this to happen is a good thing ?
Pre 2008 sure you could get 5 - 10 mill cash from a friend on Starport - but there wasn't mods and such ( port negs ) too aid in Invading somebody.
This is exactly what i'm trying to soak into everybody's head - it isn't the core of the game that's the problem - it's the unlevel playing basis between Building and Invading and also the pathetic introduction of Mods and easy to get Port Negotiators from Ports that has killed the game.
I really don't understand why Toonces and anybody that cares about Starport can't understand that this is the root of the problem.
Starport WONT get anywhere near a decent amount of Players on it unless it's changed so that there's a far more even playing field and also a purpose to play it. Theres NO skill on it anymore - anybody that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken.
HAVING too work so that you could invade a colony was what MADE so many play pre 2008.
You NEEDED help in order too wipe another Corp.
It was rare that somebody could login to a Perma and just invade 5-10 colonies - now its possible to login and invade 50 if you have 3 hrs too spare.
You don't NEED a Corpy too help you now - it can be done solo.
Toonces and his advisors have wiped out any requirement for needing help too invade a colony.
No requirement = less playerbase - simple.
He needs to bring it back into the game ( without listening to the pathetic suggestions of bit part ( and frankly awful ) Players) that seem too think it'll make the game better ( for THEIR benefit only ) .
WeGotDeathstar is totally correct about the Exp loss causing the downfall of Playerkilling - But Toonces needs to put this back to where it was before instead of leaving it as it is and losing more and more Players.

*Sighs .... Aaron please please please ... admit it's wrong and try to put it back . :roll:

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:55 pm

P.S

I'd like to nominate myself as Chief Advisor too STARPORT GE and all of it's affiliates so i can help Aaron bring this game back too life. ( for a nominal fee of course ) *winks.

:D

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:56 pm

Waiting for the mail ...... :D

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:57 pm

I can Pole Dance too ya know - :shock:

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:59 pm

Still waiting.......

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:00 pm

Keeping the Seat warm huh ?

ItsMcCrazy
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:43 am
Location: Rebangs/IGH

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by ItsMcCrazy » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:13 am

Building still takes a modicum of skill lol...even though all anyone has to do is wait the 3-4 days to come out of in, and then invade it in roughly 5-10 minutes after spending you know, 1000 fuel and hours building it....


Incorporate dtox's idea! He stays coming up with some good stuff lmfao XD

User avatar
Caia
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by Caia » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:39 pm

Caia isn't it good that the beginning of the game be slightly more difficult?
I'll answer the base question first, but I'd need more information to give you a better answer.

Answer: Generally speaking, the answer is profoundly "no". Most game design theory states that a player should be dropped into the game in the easiest part of the game and then advance through the game while it becomes more difficult. Many many papers have been written about this as gaming has become a multi-billion dollar industry. People have been trying to make better and better games and a LOT of research has gone into why people find games fun. And more specifically WHAT makes games fun.

Making the beginning of a game hard does two things which people don't like. 1.) Its makes the beginning very difficult. Difficult games frustrate people. People don't play games to be frustrated. So they tend to leave games that frustrate them. And 2.) Anyone who gets by the beginning area will become bored very very quickly as the game doesn't get harder, it gets easier. If the had the gaming experience to get by the hard part, and then the game becomes easier the longer they go, then they quickly become bored and quit. So either they tend to quit early due to frustration or they quit a bit later due to boredom.

The above is why in pretty much any game you play, the beginning levels are very easy and the game slowly ramps up the difficulty. No one is frustrated at first, and no one gets bored with the ease of content later.

Now so I better understand what you mean I have a question. When you say "slightly more difficult" are we talking 5% more difficult? 15% more difficult? 50%? "Slightly" isn't a terribly accurate term. If we're talking about a 5 to 20% increase, then we run into another problem: Adding a slight difficulty curve generally isn't worth the programming time. What you're talking about here would require some pretty extensive coding (and later on testing). Is it really worth the time to add a slight increase to game play that would only last for a short time? Generally the answer is "no". I'm assuming these levels would happen fairly quickly and you're talking about maxing them out within a week or two of playing. If not, if these levels take a long time to come to fruition, then the answer would be "yes, it could be VERY worthwhile to do" but it has to be done very carefully. But then we're talking about a fundamental shift from what the game is now (a very open sandbox game) to something that would be much more linear (a game like WoW which is open world, but you can only do so much until you progress in level). This isn't a bad thing per se. But it would require a very very different game model. Essentially to make such a thing worthwhile you'd have to go back and completely alter the game in such a way as a level based system would work and be rewarding.

The other thing we have to contend with in Starport is that a lot of the PvE combat content we go up against isn't generated by some algorithm. Any time you're invading, its been set up by a player. This means that Toonces has little control over the PvE content of most of the game (the exception is fightng NPCs in space). This makes Starport a sandbox game. As such, its very difficult to add levels and expect them to mean much. If leveling up meant I could take bigger and better planets, then sure it would DO something. But since planets are either super easy to take (set up by newer players) or very difficult to take (set up by vets) there is very rarely any middle ground. This means that all those levels in the middle won't help you take over better planets, and you don't need them to take over easy planets.

Adding levels to the game may work if done very very carefully, but I just don't see it adding enough content to be worthwhile. There are a few solutions to this, but we'd be talking about adding lots and lots of content generated by the program and not players (which I'm not against, but it would make the game very very different).

Edit: Ah, the other issue which I forget to mention. The game is already very unbalanced in terms of older players to newer players. Anyone that's been on a server for a while has all sorts of advantages to someone just coming in. This would only further add to that imbalance by making the newer player even weaker than they already are. If anything, I'd rather see that distanced shortened, not lengthened.

Edit2: A few links if you're curious about game design theory...

Amateur writer but writes very cleaning and is easy to understand: http://gamedesigntheory.blogspot.com/
Excellent video series, though a bit dry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2hQvfpAisI
A slideshow explaining some of the concepts above much better than I do: http://www.slideshare.net/bigyak/game-d ... ory-of-fun
And there are hundreds of books on this very subject as well as courses at most universities if anyone is interested in such things.

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Caia, i understand why making the game difficult for beginners is a bad thing. :wink:
You've brought up some great points and are basically correct.

However :roll:

Too input a suggestion ( as iv'e described above ) into the game wouldn't make the game harder for beginners ... in fact it would probably even many things out between new Players and Long Term serving Players.
The reason is because if a Ship Pilot were needed to be created by all Players on entrance too a Game ( Perma or whatever ) Then all Players would begin with a basic Pilot.
No Mods available ( just Artifacts ) - Please explain WHY this would benefit anybody more than somebody else ?
The Training of the Pilot ( for each Player ) would be sporadic and pure Luck if truths known.

If Starports creators want suggestions for change then these are the kind of suggestions worth investigating - afterall look at some of the suggestions and alterations the game has had to put up with over past few years.
You tell me the name of one Gamer that doesn't enjoy some aspect of luck or chance when he plays a game ?
Invading is Skill for sure - but in some cases luck is involved also.
Fact is ( even if this idea does happen too end up in the Trash ) having some kind of Pilot with his own characteristics ( built on luck and chance ) i can't see this being a bad thing - if somebody gets immense stats on his Pilot then everybody is gonna wanna destroy him. = confrontation between Player and often resulting in Wars.

User avatar
Caia
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by Caia » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:42 pm

D-Tox,

I was speaking strictly about the leveling system. I can go into other details (mods, artifacts and so forth) if you wish, but I was trying to speak about on subject without going into all the others. I better to look at one thing at a time and figure out how that will affect the entire system than to look at many things at once and try to figure out how all of them put together will affect the system.
The reason is because if a Ship Pilot were needed to be created by all Players on entrance too a Game ( Perma or whatever ) Then all Players would begin with a basic Pilot.
There is already a system in place that does this. Its not as developed as your version perhaps, but its there.
The Training of the Pilot ( for each Player ) would be sporadic and pure Luck if truths known.
I could not disagree with random luck-based skill ups more. If you're going for a combat type character and you get building skill ups, then you're at a significant disadvantage. Basically, we'd be going to a system where you had to get the perfect character. If you didn't get the perfect character, then you'd be less likely to play. All this does 99% of the time is create frustration for the player. I can't think of a single game that's used this structure that's been successful. Imagine if you were playing WoW and your magic casting character good nothing but strength and dex bonuses to stats and level up a sword and great ax. WoW would be unplayable for the majority of characters.
You tell me the name of one Gamer that doesn't enjoy some aspect of luck or chance when he plays a game?
Any chess player. Though I think it is fair to say that SOME luck is a good thing, games should be skill based first. Imagine playing tic-toc-toe where the square you get to put an X in is based on luck. There would be no skill to the game whatsoever.
Fact is ( even if this idea does happen too end up in the Trash ) having some kind of Pilot with his own characteristics ( built on luck and chance ) i can't see this being a bad thing - if somebody gets immense stats on his Pilot then everybody is gonna wanna destroy him. = confrontation between Player and often resulting in Wars.
No. What's more likely to happen is that the player gets frustrated and leaves to find a game that isn't so luck dependent. Unless they're a glutton for punishment, players like to attack when they're likely to win. Having the wrong stats to win would make the player much less likely to attack and actually lead to much less confrontation.

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:45 pm

In your first Post on here Caia you mentioned "If you didn't have the shields or energy regen to effectively take colonies, you'd be forced into building. Which in turn would simply feed higher level players."
Well rumor has it when Starport had a steady influx of Players playing they Invaded Colonies with only Artifacts .... No Mods or anything apart from perhaps help from a friend/s, so why shouldn't they be able too invade a colony now without them ?
Putting it simply - you're implying that current Starport Invaders are incapable of invading a colony without mods ?
How easy it is now is whats killing the game.
Name me one thing which is more challenging now - than it was pre 2008 ? - answer is nothing.
Players played for the Exp gain and to be top ... which created player killing and mass invasions to diminish hostile corps .. where is it now ?
Don't get me wrong - i 100% agree on some of the things you're saying, but ( please don't take this personally - because it isn't meant as a dig ) it seems the way the game is now suits you.
Whats the point in playing Starport when there's only 2 or 3 people online ?
Pre 2008 - it was more like 20 - 30. - on almost every Server. :roll:

Also when i asked for a Gamer that didn't enjoy some aspect of luck - the chess player answer is also incorrect - i'm a great Chess Player and play regularly ( online ), When you see a player you're playing against make a bad move without seeing a great move ... too me that's lucky.

/salute

ItsMcCrazy
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:43 am
Location: Rebangs/IGH

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by ItsMcCrazy » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:32 pm

BR (when it was perma) had a pretty much guaranteed 15-20 online at all times...and in the busy hours, it often had 25-30...it was a decently active server, but there were always like 2 more servers going that had around 30 something online...game was much more fun back then, as you always had to watch your back when flying around when you had a large amount of xp lmfao XD...not including having 3 way wars to keep your corp in top ten, or keeping your personal rank in top ten (back then it was all about what corps were top ten, not what players) now it just seems that the top corps every server, maybe 2 of them are actually active...something does need to get done to bring back the player base we used to have (and the caliber of players back then would be nice to bring back too, from what I've seen so far)

/hifive dtox for the idea, is pretty sweet

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:46 pm

ItsMcCrazy wrote:BR (when it was perma) had a pretty much guaranteed 15-20 online at all times...and in the busy hours, it often had 25-30...it was a decently active server, but there were always like 2 more servers going that had around 30 something online...game was much more fun back then, as you always had to watch your back when flying around when you had a large amount of xp lmfao XD...not including having 3 way wars to keep your corp in top ten, or keeping your personal rank in top ten (back then it was all about what corps were top ten, not what players) now it just seems that the top corps every server, maybe 2 of them are actually active...something does need to get done to bring back the player base we used to have (and the caliber of players back then would be nice to bring back too, from what I've seen so far)

/hifive dtox for the idea, is pretty sweet

Thanks buddy. :)

There's far too much negativity flying around Starport - as if nobody seems too know the answer. - Or given up trying.

Problem is we ALL know what the answers are - all that is required is a steady pace of progress... doesn't have to be overnight.
You Guys ( an Gals ), are what makes Starport happen - and there's also a decent amount of Older Players which saw this in it's Prime still flittering about on Servers.

The Programmers HAVE too listen too you all, if they don't it'll go down the drain. :(
They provided a Masterpiece of a game and made some bad calls - they'll never admit it - but Bank Balances never lie.
If they can't see what's happened too the game then something is seriously wrong. - this game should be pulling in at least 250 Online Players every evening. - it's had plenty of time to do it.

don't give excuses about the reason there isn't any new Players playing now because they find it " too hard " or " lack of Advertising ". - This is Bullcrap and you know it.

Fact is this : The reason there isn't any new Players coming into the game is purely because they see NO-ONE online ! !

We used to see new guys login and chat too them, then get them too help barging Nukes or whatever - this used too nurture them into the game. - Plus give them cash and Protection.

They don't need cash or protection now when they play cos it's so cheap too invade someones colony and after a few hours they get bored and log off because there's no-one too chat too etc. :lol:


Well iv'e done my bit of suggestions etc for now,
You guys should stick together and make it happen - you've paid for the game.

/respect

User avatar
Caia
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by Caia » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:27 am

Well, I'm really only responding to critique the idea. It seems you wish to discuss a whole of other things in here. I'll reiterate that I don't think the idea is feasible and leave it at that.
Last edited by Caia on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrMcZ
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:08 am

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by MrMcZ » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:49 am

So pretty much if I build and avoid conflict I will be a beast with epic stats?

ItsMcCrazy
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:43 am
Location: Rebangs/IGH

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by ItsMcCrazy » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:05 pm

MrMcZ wrote:So pretty much if I build and avoid conflict I will be a beast with epic stats?
Dude it's pretty much impossible to avoid conflict haha...someone is bound to get bored and stir the pot up :wink:

User avatar
D-Tox1
2011 Starport Champion
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:01 pm

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by D-Tox1 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:37 pm

MrMcZ wrote:So pretty much if I build and avoid conflict I will be a beast with epic stats?
Avoiding Conflict is easy at present - very little competition.

The whole idea of a Ship Pilot with Stats is : To provide a Luck based character that if truths known can either give you excellent stats that you would've wished for - and also provide ones that you wouldn't have chosen.
This whole being able to modify your ship perfectly from a Starbase is too easy.
You want too invade so you get mods that will aid you in it. - and same goes for Building, this proposal would make it impossible to literally " choose" your setup - meaning you could get a great setup Pilot, therefore you keep him and protect him ( making sure not too get blown up ), whereas if you train your Pilot and he seems to be getting useless upgrades, then you either stick with it - or die and recreate a new Pilot from the beginning.
This whole purpose would create an ambition by other Players too attack someone with a great Pilot Stats. Therefore forcing him to have to recreate a new Pilot from scratch on destruction of his Ship.

The game needs to be forced into a purposeful Combat situation once again - for too long it's been missing. - hence it's decline.

Agreed - this idea would make it harder for Invaders and Fighters from the offset - but after a few weeks it would become easier as the Pilots Stats increase.

User avatar
VanadiumDragon
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Out with the old - In with the new ?

Post by VanadiumDragon » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:41 am

D-Tox1 wrote:P.S

I'd like to nominate myself as Chief Advisor too STARPORT GE and all of it's affiliates so i can help Aaron bring this game back too life. ( for a nominal fee of course ) *winks.

:D
psh... toonces is like the dread pirate roberts... it aint been aaron hunter for years now XD

Post Reply