How Should Starport Be Run?

[RiveraK2]

Introduction:

For years I've been reading on this forum that Starport is dead, or that its going to cease to exist.
Heck, I've even read peoples' opinions on how to "save" Starport. My opinion has always been that
if you don't like the way things currently are; then don't play!

I finally came to the realization that players are going to complain no matter what. I believe these
complaints stem from the love that players have for Starport. I believe that the SGE community
continually puts its two cents into what should or shouldn't be changed within the game because
they love it so much, and simply want it to succeed.

My question is this:
From an in-game and technical standpoint; how should Starport be run?

[Voltage]

Better

[omlow]

Better

[Luna]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

[omlow]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

[M2-Destroyer]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

Luna - I love you! Brilliant how you manage to sum things up so simply


However, in response to what has been said, there are a number of other things that factor into how Starport is run, Intentionally or not.

Now i've been on both sides of this, complaining about this, that and the next thing, but also defending the running of SGE. I think that when trying to achieve a happy medium, which i think will never happen (But would be awesome).

I like how involved Toonces can get sometimes with the community - It shows real character in my opinion, obviously Toonces had a vision of how SGE would end up and god only knows how many times that vision has changed because of what players wanted.

On the other hand, i think that we also need to consider other possible factors that would prevent Toonces from being able to do everything we want.

Just as a quick example, what about a Toonces limited knowledge? I'm not saying he's thick, or stupid, but he can't possibly know everything there is to know. Personally, i feel he's done brilliantly, but to apply new updates, it'll take a lot of trial and error. I know there are bugs in the coding, but sometimes it takes actual end-user testing to uncover them all.

Hands down, i know that i couldn't do what he does and he has my respect for that, but i think that sometimes the community pushes too hard - At the same time, i think Toonces DOES slack at times, but can we really blame him? I mean, look at what happened when Toonces found cheaters on one of the servers, instead of banning them straight away, did he not extend an invitation to players online at the time to join him as he kicked them from the Port and let them kill them? Was awesome i have to say - I think 'Woots' was one of them.

He's taken a lot of crap over the years as well, for instance take the prank phonecall a few years back, which was broadcast over Vent. Or the uproar when Pollution was implemented.

All in all, i think there is a healthy, yet very unstable balance here and it will always be here.



I do apologise to anyone who read that and got to this point and thought 'What the f*ck is he on about' but it's 9:30 am and i'm just back from work.

[Mel'Kaven]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

Luna - I love you! Brilliant how you manage to sum things up so simply


However, in response to what has been said, there are a number of other things that factor into how Starport is run, Intentionally or not.

Now i've been on both sides of this, complaining about this, that and the next thing, but also defending the running of SGE. I think that when trying to achieve a happy medium, which i think will never happen (But would be awesome).

I like how involved Toonces can get sometimes with the community - It shows real character in my opinion, obviously Toonces had a vision of how SGE would end up and god only knows how many times that vision has changed because of what players wanted.

On the other hand, i think that we also need to consider other possible factors that would prevent Toonces from being able to do everything we want.

Just as a quick example, what about a Toonces limited knowledge? I'm not saying he's thick, or stupid, but he can't possibly know everything there is to know. Personally, i feel he's done brilliantly, but to apply new updates, it'll take a lot of trial and error. I know there are bugs in the coding, but sometimes it takes actual end-user testing to uncover them all.

Hands down, i know that i couldn't do what he does and he has my respect for that, but i think that sometimes the community pushes too hard - At the same time, i think Toonces DOES slack at times, but can we really blame him? I mean, look at what happened when Toonces found cheaters on one of the servers, instead of banning them straight away, did he not extend an invitation to players online at the time to join him as he kicked them from the Port and let them kill them? Was awesome i have to say - I think 'Woots' was one of them.

He's taken a lot of crap over the years as well, for instance take the prank phonecall a few years back, which was broadcast over Vent. Or the uproar when Pollution was implemented.

All in all, i think there is a healthy, yet very unstable balance here and it will always be here.



I do apologise to anyone who read that and got to this point and thought 'What the f*ck is he on about' but it's 9:30 am and i'm just back from work.

Why am I on at 1:22AM?

I totally agree. Its hard being an administrator, let alone being the everything - hes the networked, programmer, and artist at some times. Sucks. Especially when its just him.

[M2-Destroyer]

I'm glad that made sense to SOMEONE ^^

I completely agree Mel, i also think that Luna has a great point as well.

I think the balance at the moment is fine, healthy, a little volatile, but its there


EDIT: And holy sh*t dude - Were you just waiting for someone post? XD

[JesusRocks765]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

Which would be

Better

[Patrikc]

Or the uproar when Pollution was implemented.

No sh*t. Pollution and asteroids are two things that I have hated with all my heart. They have added nothing of value to the game (realism, yay), and only cost us more time and effort that could have been put into actually playing the game. Oh wait, pollution added money to Toonces.

I totally agree. Its hard being an administrator, let alone being the everything - hes the networked, programmer, and artist at some times. Sucks. Especially when its just him.

And that's exactly the problem. It's not hard. It's impossible. This game should have been run by a team, a company. There are so many things that Starport needs, yet it's been 3 years since I've played this game hardcore and almost nothing of substance has been added. Instead, the already unbalanced game has only gone further off balance through modules. Invading has become even easier, though thank heavens building got something nice for once too in resource management.

What really pisses me off is stuff like this. The complete lack of respect for the players. Asking the community what they think of a change, and when the majority thinks it's a bad idea, you just flip them the finger and do it anyway.


But in the end, the only thing that keeps Starport from being a popular and successful game is how goddamn stale it is. People can only do the same thing over and over again for so long before it becomes boring. After a while, it's just not worth spending so much time on, and after we've had enough, we just leave one by one until there's noone left.

[JesusRocks765]

Or the uproar when Pollution was implemented.

No sh*t. Pollution and asteroids are two things that I have hated with all my heart. They have added nothing of value to the game (realism, yay), and only cost us more time and effort that could have been put into actually playing the game. Oh wait, pollution added money to Toonces.

I totally agree. Its hard being an administrator, let alone being the everything - hes the networked, programmer, and artist at some times. Sucks. Especially when its just him.

And that's exactly the problem. It's not hard. It's impossible. This game should have been run by a team, a company. There are so many things that Starport needs, yet it's been 3 years since I've played this game hardcore and almost nothing of substance has been added. Instead, the already unbalanced game has only gone further off balance through modules. Invading has become even easier, though thank heavens building got something nice for once too in resource management.

What really pisses me off is stuff like this. The complete lack of respect for the players. Asking the community what they think of a change, and when the majority thinks it's a bad idea, you just flip them the finger and do it anyway.


But in the end, the only thing that keeps Starport from being a popular and successful game is how goddamn stale it is. People can only do the same thing over and over again for so long before it becomes boring. After a while, it's just not worth spending so much time on, and after we've had enough, we just leave one by one until there's noone left.

lol completely agree with everything you just said.

[RiveraK2]

People can only do the same thing over and over again for so long before it becomes boring.

I completely agree with this statement. Starport is a game of repetition. Players build, invade, fight, invade, fight, build.
Its a cauldron of awesomeness for a while, but gets tiresome after time.

As far as the game itself is concerned; I believe that its repetition will indeed turn a load of players off but at the same time
there will always be a wave of new players who will discover the game's limited cauldron of awesomeness. In my opinion, that's
enough to keep Starport alive for years to come.

[Mel'Kaven]

People can only do the same thing over and over again for so long before it becomes boring.

I completely agree with this statement. Starport is a game of repetition. Players build, invade, fight, invade, fight, build.
Its a cauldron of awesomeness for a while, but gets tiresome after time.

As far as the game itself is concerned; I believe that its repetition will indeed turn a load of players off but at the same time
there will always be a wave of new players who will discover the game's limited cauldron of awesomeness. In my opinion, that's
enough to keep Starport alive for years to come.

Which is exactly why more content needs to be added to ad to the games variety. Think about it. How useless are 90% of everything on permas? how useless are flaks? How useless are regular mines? How useless are fussions? How useless are inertia blasters? All of this stuff is not used on permas because their higher tier items are SO much better and the gap to aquire them takes about 10k more credits. Thats 1 taxi mission. Thats 10 cargo holds of trading. Thats getting colonists from earth and selling them at New New York. Its too easy to get the top tier items of the game and thus nothing else is used.

I recommend having a look at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20557

[BarbaraWalters]

Somehow he needs to create something that pulls the old players back in.

[Missionary]

Anyone ever asked Toonces if he'd be willing to sell the whole shabang?

[ygvbBubblez]

I'd probably buy it if I could, but sadly I don't think I'd have anywhere near enough money if it was ever offered up for sale, .
Don't you think it'd be kinda mean to ask toonces to sell his game though, unless you were the one planning on buying it?

[JuliusCaesar]

Never saw the point in posting anything in this thread, given it won't change anything, but eh

The game needs to be run by someone who has and is actively playing the game

[MadAce]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

You do realize that is what destroyed SGE, right?

[avitohol]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

You do realize that is what destroyed SGE, right?

Amen

[D-Tox1]

SGE creator listening to the SGE players....more influence from players on what they want and enjoy. Plain and simple. Give players what they enjoy the most and they will play more and bring more people to the game. Sometimes a creators dream falls short of what the players enjoy or want. Find the happy medium.

You do realize that is what destroyed SGE, right?

I disagree

I think it was " Creator listening to the " Wrong " Sge Players. - The Old Players stuck around for many years enjoying the game as it was - then nurtured the new Players - The New Players got lazy and decided they wanted to alter the game with their pathetic suggestions and hence Player base dropped.
I doubt a single Player with at least 3 years Starport Experience will deny - The Game rocked back then as it was - so my opinion? you want the game to "rock "again - adjust it back to the way it was.
And would be wise to listen to the Players that have actually " put in the time, effort and money" on here and listen to them - instead of those " lazy arsed dumbwits" that moan about pollution and spending more than 5 minutes invading a colony.
If your'e one of the aforementioned Players - go play somewhere else, cos Starport obviously isn't for you.
This game required Skill, Time, Effort and Teamwork once.... thanks to those lazy Players all of that's gone ( just to suit you ! ") .
So those Players - I dare you to ever question Toonces " loyalty" to Starport and its community - for he's listened to you guys for far too long - hence its decline.

Starport had its foundation, all it needed was " tweaking " and some thought out ideas to be implemented.

All you long serving Players .. time to stand up and emerge from the Shadows, lets get this game back to how it should be.

[D-Tox1]

Ok, maybe that was a bit harsh ....

I ( like many others ) remember the day i first joined Starport, and i also remember that in truth there was only a select few " capable Solo Invaders ".. one sticks to mind - Moleman.
My point is the guy was a Legend, he stuck out in my mind ( and in a lot of other guys minds as being one of the best in Starport ) - He took risks and capped some incredible colonies. ( usually Solo ).
I'm not speaking for Moleman - but my guess is he isn't playing it now because it's far too easy to Invade, and many of his friends ( at BM ) also left because of the same reason.
That whole part of Starport has gone.. where is the Risk and Reward aspect of the game gone ?
Its all been made far too easy - jump into a Port and pick up 16 negs - and shield prices are a joke .. 10k cash to reshield ?
This game thrived on the Risk and Reward ethic, guys having big enough balls to work together to invade a real hard Colony without having the use of Port Negs and Mods - you were usually only as good as your Wingmen.. it took Planning, Effort and Teamwork.
Starport was never easy, Invading was risky business ( unless you knew what you were doing and had a decent amount of confidence and experience ) - that's what made it so special back then, you were either a cracking Solo Invader like Moleman - or had to get 2 or 3 guys to help you out Invading it. ( This involved Teamwork).
Hence all the Corps we had back then - Dogzilla, Broken Monkey, Shintzu Dynasty, Oakenshield & Co, Black Hand, and many many others - large Teams of guys HAVING to work together to achieve their goal, and because there was so many large corps it usually ended up with a far higher level of Competitiveness and activity on the Server.
This wasn't the days where it took 5 minutes $100k cash and 15 warp Fuel to Invade a Colony - This was when it took 15-20 minutes and countless warp fuel getting nukes ! - and they didn't have Mods !
So.... you tell me ..... " why is it so many Players left the game ? - want it bluntly ? .... Because its become boring and too easy. and far too many irrelevant and annoying additions that to be honest didn't help the game one bit.
Everybody can say its this reason and that reason, and we're all entitled to our own opinions, but can anyone honestly give one single viable reason why so many left ?
Now don't get me wrong - i'm not slating all of the new additions to Starport, some have been fairly useful, another that i believe will be a great addition is the loss of Exp when one of your colonies is invaded, it should keep Players alert and more protective over their Planets - hence possibly resulting in more Player confrontations / fighting.
But all of us have to open our eyes and realise that Starport is run for profit, Fuel loss = Tokensales, IGS ship = Tokensales - so to be honest - when somebody Posts a thread on Forums suggesting we abolish Pollution ..... *sighs - get real.
This isn't a joke anymore - This once great game HAS gone backwards because of pitiful suggestions - all of which have resulted in where it is today, but it can be brought back...
Toonces needs constructive ideas to work with, which will bring playability and risk / reward - not the " oh this takes too long we gotta get him to change it " attitude which has wounded Starport already.

I don't know everyone on Starport - but to be honest Toonces needs advice from the likes of MJS , KUKA, Kwijibo, Luna and Crazychef to get this game back on Track - not somebody that's only been playing a few weeks.

/huggin' love this game - Don't let it die.

[Saber-Fury]

agree with d-tox

but the simple fact of the matter is... and toonces has said it:

If he's making money, he doesn't care about the game settings aside from any of his personal 'visions.' He listens to token buyers.

Most of the older players that tox named aren't actively playing and buying tokens, thus there is a small field of people who have good ideas, yet buy the tokens that it takes to get them listened to. unfortunately between toonces listening to 'newer' token whores who never knew the golden age of the game, and the few people with the experience and tokens to get themselves heard not agreeing on what should be done, we get the up and down, back and forth, unnecessary, annoying, and meaningless updates in the past 3 years.

Toonces makes more money now than before. this is because of the 10 people that actively play every server, 8 buy tokens out their asses to support their pixelated egos in the form of large, stagnant empires. And not having a coding team anymore, I can't blame toonces for not wanting to take a risk ( in his eyes ) by reverting back to the old game (which he no longer has the code for apparently). I'm sure he's just happy to be making as much money as he did before. His position these days is that he feels that no matter what he does, people will complain, so he might as well listen to the people paying him.

[0zzy]

In a way, if thats Toonces mindset, hes perfectly within his rights.

At the end of the day, the people who dont contribute to the game shouldn't have any say in the game. A bit like the reason for the war of independence only the other way round.

Dont complain if you dont buy tokens.

[avitohol]

Never been a colony you can't solo invade. Just need time and money. More so now.

As for this nostalgia. The problem is that most people moaned hard before they got somewhere. And seem to forget this. A perfect example was when most of us invaders moaned on the concept of how easy colonies where. Couple that with the rape victims. We got the shotgun solar.

The game was perfectly balanced at the start. Thats obvious. But people get good. So we get changes. Simple as that.

So i would say the best year for rebangs was 2004-2005. And for permas it was 2005.

[Saber-Fury]

Never been a colony you can't solo invade. Just need time and money. More so now.

As for this nostalgia. The problem is that most people moaned hard before they got somewhere. And seem to forget this. A perfect example was when most of us invaders moaned on the concept of how easy colonies where. Couple that with the rape victims. We got the shotgun solar.

The game was perfectly balanced at the start. Thats obvious. But people get good. So we get changes. Simple as that.

So i would say the best year for rebangs was 2004-2005. And for permas it was 2005.

avi brings up a good point - people have simply gotten better at the game, so going straight back to the 'good old days' might not exactly work out.

Pretty much ANY invader today would have been a gods in the eyes of a lot of the 2005 players if they were teleported back in time.. to go from 10/120 hard layouts to 1/whatever rings.

What has happened to the players has been a 'weighted sword' effect. Like training with a heavy sword so you can swing the real thing easily, players have practiced so much on high solars and new layouts that anything less is a piece of cake.

Yes the game has changed setting-wise, but people's skills have improved to the point where they eclipse 2005 standards. For example old layouts are either nuke eaters or rings: if swinging a narrow 10/120 nuke eater back and forth as you nuke is easy now, what would a 1 shot old nuke eater feel like? Also defensive strategies have gotten better - people know not to use silly, block-shaped walls on rings because they can be slid easily. They know not to leave wf on easy cols. They will make a nuke eater before any sort of convoluted, risky, exciting-for-the-invader defensive alignment. People don't even build most of the old layouts now because there are better ones.

If we could get the old SGE back this very moment, part of me thinks that it would be a dud. why? - builders don't want to go from cols now to 1 shots. There would need to be a lot of meaningful incentives for anyone to want to go from building 10/120s to 1/60s. There would need to be a surge of newbs to build easy cols for the older players to frolick on in order for it to feel like old SGE.

[avitohol]

Never been a colony you can't solo invade. Just need time and money. More so now.

As for this nostalgia. The problem is that most people moaned hard before they got somewhere. And seem to forget this. A perfect example was when most of us invaders moaned on the concept of how easy colonies where. Couple that with the rape victims. We got the shotgun solar.

The game was perfectly balanced at the start. Thats obvious. But people get good. So we get changes. Simple as that.

So i would say the best year for rebangs was 2004-2005. And for permas it was 2005.

avi brings up a good point - people have simply gotten better at the game, so going straight back to the 'good old days' might not exactly work out.

Pretty much ANY invader today would have been a gods in the eyes of a lot of the 2005 players if they were teleported back in time.. to go from 10/120 hard layouts to 1/whatever rings.

What has happened to the players has been a 'weighted sword' effect. Like training with a heavy sword so you can swing the real thing easily, players have practiced so much on high solars and new layouts that anything less is a piece of cake.

Yes the game has changed setting-wise, but people's skills have improved to the point where they eclipse 2005 standards. For example old layouts are either nuke eaters or rings: if swinging a narrow 10/120 nuke eater back and forth as you nuke is easy now, what would a 1 shot old nuke eater feel like? Also defensive strategies have gotten better - people know not to use silly, block-shaped walls on rings because they can be slid easily. They know not to leave wf on easy cols. They will make a nuke eater before any sort of convoluted, risky, exciting-for-the-invader defensive alignment. People don't even build most of the old layouts now because there are better ones.

If we could get the old SGE back this very moment, part of me thinks that it would be a dud. why? - builders don't want to go from cols now to 1 shots. There would need to be a lot of meaningful incentives for anyone to want to go from building 10/120s to 1/60s. There would need to be a surge of newbs to build easy cols for the older players to frolick on in order for it to feel like old SGE.

I was pointing out that madace was correct. I would have said what D-tox said if this was 2007-8.

However having a large gap in not playing kinda opened up my eyes to the changes. See a lot of the people who have problems with the changes are people who are active. When you have a small tweak or rule change it messes with your modjo. You're used to doing certain things. Have a daily routine. Or even worse spend most of your time cleaning colonies.

Now for me. I came back and it tool me 2-3 months to work out the changes. That for me was a good experience.

Now the problem lies in the fact that a large amount of toonces's income is in those players that are active and hold down a big empire. And like most online games he listens to his player base. Add into that potion the fact that he's solo, maintaining a game, and he'll listen to those that affect his RL. Which i believe is understandable.

But getting back to my point. The issue of balance with all games is something that seems to achieved at the start and destroyed with tweaking around the player base. How the game is ran is based around multiple things. Which i don't even need to explain. My alternative to this situation is the idea of customisable servers bought by players in the game. However knowing this games player base, that would be a bad idea since its going to devolve into control and ego.

[WeGotDeathStar]

All of these are great ideas but the only way any of this will work is if we get new players starting the game and staying with it. Until then the token whores will continue to influence the game and put in a direction further then what it used to be, StarPort used to be a great fun game with so many people playing. Classics banged, 120 active players for 2 weeks straight. That was the last time I saw any real activity.



Marketing Marketing Marketing will improve this game a 100 percent, until that happens then nothing said here will help the direction of this game, it will only make the old timers happy or mad depending on what happens with patches.

[D-Tox1]

Ill be backing down on this subject as from now -

But I believe you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say with regards to Invaders of Yesteryear and Invaders of today ..

You say " Invaders have progressed to a higher Level of expertise " ? -I'm afraid they haven't - Invaders have never been so lazy as they are nowadays. - Things have become too easy for them, so Solar Shots / damage is required to be altered ...Im not surprised with the use of Mods now.

You also say " Invaders of the Past wouldn't hold a torch to the Players Invading nowadays" ..again I disagree, firstly because the effort,Time and thought they had to put into Invading a colony was FAR superior to that of today.

I just can't understand why ( what appears to be a " Select few " ) you can't see what's happened to the Game...
I'm not disagreeing that things were required to be tweaked here and there.. but when you take out one of the fundamental things that attracted People to this game ( skill ) - i'm afraid it's gonna go on a downer simple as that.
Add that to wiping out the Effort required up to what was required 4 yrs ago - well game over really.

As i said, i wont be posting about this thread again.. seems whatever's said to try and correct the wrong - the only reply posts seem to come from the Invaders that support those changes.

Good job im just a Builder.

[Saber-Fury]

not sure who/what you're on about tox

I agree game shouldn't have been steered away from the skill-oriented play - I just gave my opinion as to why it might be more difficult for that to succeed again beyond the slim chance toonces would recode it.

I think there's a greater spectrum of skill now in many ways

and by that I mean that the easiest cols now are easier than the easiest cols from years past and the hardest cols now are harder than in years past. Same goes for invaders - there are lazy, mod-spoiled ones, which tox refers to and there are ones who can regularly take 10/120 ratmazes on no mod servers (of course with planning and at least another person).

And I think you're misinterpreting the aspect of the 'lazy invader' nowadays - I agree they are like you say, mostly on mod servers, only wanting to take easy cols and use mods - yea - but the definition of what's 'easy' and what's 'hard' has evolved a lot over the years - the 'easy' cols of today are, in my opinion, at about the same level as colonies pre-solar patch. So the lazy, new invaders of this era don't want to take the hard cols, they want to take the simple, easy cols.

There's a reason no one builds many old layouts now - they're viewed as easy. Before multishots and new layouts, I don't there there were really 'hard' layouts. Rings were considered the hardest. We can just use that as an example - if rings were the hardest type of col before I don't see how invading was harder back than than it is now. mind you if I say "Invaders back then weren't as good as they are now" I don't mean they couldn't adapt to the game now and still be good invaders, it's that the 'best' of yesteryear - the best colonies and tactics, have become the 'easy' and 'average' of today because of the 10/120 solars and killers layouts.

and by yesteryear are we talking about pre multi shot era, or just pre-mod era?

And if you're looking at mod servers and no mod servers we'd need separate threads cause they're two different worlds.

I could agree with tox's points entirely if based on a mod server - the cols are like what? 3 shots? 4 shots? there and you can plate spam - that's where the noobs are.

But then on the other hand you have people on no mod servers invading much harder cols without plate spam or mods.

The direction the game has taken has produced a most complicated spectrum of issues and skill types, and the individual issues need to be isolated down more in order for a good debate on them.

For example: Tox has previously said that the PROCESS of invading years ago was more difficult - I agree wholeheartedly - you had to barge nukes to a col you hoped would have a fac, then still probably have to make a risky slide or something. colony ownership felt more territorial.

I don't think anyone could argue that a 10/120 ratmaze on a no mod server is not harder than any old colony. But If you evaluate the entire process, you might see that oh you can use port negs on it, but an older colony you might have to barge nukes and take a risk.

Things get muddled when the issues aren't clearly defined. People just respond to the person above them and can sort of accidently skew the nature of the argument and incorporate or leave out important factors when making judgement. That's what dooms these SGE idea threads

[avitohol]

All i have to say is that a ratsmaze or fog, or a shotgun, gets owned by even the worst dome placement if there are 10+ defending it. Problem now is that space combat is something of the past on any server. On a mod i use cloak and on a no mod i use Ceo/IGS. The few times you get space combat is when some old players want to live some nostalgia.

As far as the pecking order went in the "yesteryears" went its was always cleaner>builders>invaders>space fighters. And i don't mean that 1v1 phallacy.

Why, because that was the funnest thing. After you did all aspects, it was the thing that got your blood boiled. Though players of that sort are usually the ones before quitting or are playing temporarily. To get to the true stage of that you need to be wanderer, without that empire to hold you down.