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McGrod
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Post by McGrod » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:59 pm

removed.
Last edited by McGrod on Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Wagon
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by Wagon » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:34 pm

McGrod wrote:also would you feel safer knowing there was a McGrod armed patrolling the streets?
No.

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MadAce
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by MadAce » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:41 pm

McGrod wrote: Statement:

If we all work in a free market and pay taxes to a central body whose role is to protect us (standing army,Navy,chaps who think they have wings and the police force).

Take care of us (hospitals, doctors, paramedics ).

Help us (disabilty benefits, ensure wheelchairs have full access throughout the town, unemployment benefits AND assistance in getting work again ie jobcentre)

Train us (schools,colleges,universities, work training ie apprenticeships). We will become a greater race and survival will become the norm for all.


Proof/reasoning :

Far right does not work, if we were to employ a private company to fight our wars then it would be much more tragic. (Blackwater springs to mind).

"Does not work" is an empty sentence and carries no weight in itself as it isn't based on an objective source or logical reasoning. Just saying "blackwater springs to mind" is a good start but some hint of a trend backed by articles would be awesome.

IF we relied on private hospitals some will go untreated (I've spoken to more than several people in starport and elswhere who have not been able to afford treatment despite working full time).

"Spoken to a few people" is anecdotal and subjective evidence which could be a downright lie from your part (not that I'm saying it is). Consider providing objective proof.
My comments in blue.

McGrod
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by McGrod » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:04 pm

removed.
Last edited by McGrod on Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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omlow
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by omlow » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:54 am

Communism.

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devilwolf
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by devilwolf » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:37 am

*I would like to divulge for one sec., if socialism is so great, why is the USA still a nation, but the USSR (union of the soviet SOCIALIST republics) now defunct and no longer around? :?

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Moleman
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by Moleman » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:47 am

The word you think you mean is digress rather than divulge, however it's not a digression as your point is entirely within the context of the topic.

As for your point..... :facepalm:

it's 1am here, if no one has responded to it by tomorrow I'll reply.

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devilwolf
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by devilwolf » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:51 am

Moleman wrote:The word you think you mean is digress rather than divulge, however it's not a digression as your point is entirely within the context of the topic.

As for your point..... :facepalm:

it's 1am here, if no one has responded to it by tomorrow I'll reply.
your right, have had a rather long day trying to finish a project.

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CrazyChef
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by CrazyChef » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:16 am

Plato's Republic

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ArdRhys4
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by ArdRhys4 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:32 am

Wow. This is funny because we had this very discussion in my philosophy class AND my politics class... I am not in the mood to rebuke anyone so I will just watch this topic closely.

McGrod
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by McGrod » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:39 am

removed.
Last edited by McGrod on Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Moleman
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by Moleman » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:41 am

devilwolf wrote:if socialism is so great, why is the USA still a nation, but the USSR (union of the soviet SOCIALIST republics) now defunct and no longer around? :?
Ok, its 11am and i'm enjoying a lovely latte with an extra shot of espresso!

To properly answer your question would require more than i'm prepared to write not to mention more than you're prepared to read! ;)

We would also need establish the fact that at the stage of the collapse of the USSR it was, to all intents and purposes, a communist state, not a socialist one, despite the name. The USSR's political ideology and practical reality was faaar removed from the socialist then communist ideal envisaged by Marx. In fact we can right at the beginning correct any notion that socialism and communism are the same thing with the words of the 'father of communism' himself who saw socialism as only a stepping stone between capitalism and his vision of true communism.
socialism is a stage of social and economic development that will replace capitalism, and will in turn be replaced by communism.
The reasons why the US is still a world superpower and the USSR is obviously no more are 100% economic rather than political, but again that would take more time than I'm inclined to spend to prove.

Its now 11.25am and I still haven't answered your question, I will attempt to do so in two sentences....

Years of Soviet military buildup at the expense of domestic development, economic growth was at a standstill, a stagnant economy and Gorbachev's failed attempts at reform (attempting to democratize communism).

Perestroika.

While socialism has many commendable ideals history has proved that capitalism has been the greatest economic driver of the last couple of centuries.

I've purposely left out my own political ideals. ;)

moleman

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MadAce
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by MadAce » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Dave34 wrote:Statement: No Government is perfect, same as no human is perfect. Finding the "right" Government is an impossible task, but from my point of view and my lifestyle, I prefer Capitalism over most other forms. (All my opinion and thoughts, no proof)


Off topic: so I can still voice my opinion with out posting something similar to a workcited page on a research paper? If so I'm not going to dig up a bunch of crap so I can voice my opinion, I'd just start a different topic.
You can try it...

The reason why this topic exists is because some people's opinions are based entirely on childish reacionary lack-of-thinking. Running away from such topics tells a bit about your opinions.
Moleman wrote:
We would also need establish the fact that at the stage of the collapse of the USSR it was, to all intents and purposes, a communist state, not a socialist one, despite the name. The USSR's political ideology and practical reality was faaar removed from the socialist then communist ideal envisaged by Marx. In fact we can right at the beginning correct any notion that socialism and communism are the same thing with the words of the 'father of communism' himself who saw socialism as only a stepping stone between capitalism and his vision of true communism.
socialism is a stage of social and economic development that will replace capitalism, and will in turn be replaced by communism.
The reasons why the US is still a world superpower and the USSR is obviously no more are 100% economic rather than political, but again that would take more time than I'm inclined to spend to prove.

Its now 11.25am and I still haven't answered your question, I will attempt to do so in two sentences....

Years of Soviet military buildup at the expense of domestic development, economic growth was at a standstill, a stagnant economy and Gorbachev's failed attempts at reform (attempting to democratize communism).

Perestroika.

While socialism has many commendable ideals history has proved that capitalism has been the greatest economic driver of the last couple of centuries.

I've purposely left out my own political ideals. ;)
Translation:

Retort:"We would also need establish the fact that at the stage of the collapse of the USSR it was, to all intents and purposes, a communist state, not a socialist one, despite the name. "

"The reasons why the US is still a world superpower and the USSR is obviously no more are 100% economic rather than political, but again that would take more time than I'm inclined to spend to prove."

Proof:
"In fact we can right at the beginning correct any notion that socialism and communism are the same thing with the words of the 'father of communism' himself who saw socialism as only a stepping stone between capitalism and his vision of true communism."

Things needed to be proven, or sufficiently established:
"The USSR's political ideology and practical reality was faaar removed from the socialist then communist ideal envisaged by Marx."

"Years of Soviet military buildup at the expense of domestic development, economic growth was at a standstill, a stagnant economy and Gorbachev's failed attempts at reform (attempting to democratize communism).
Perestroika."

"While socialism has many commendable ideals history has proved that capitalism has been the greatest economic driver of the last couple of centuries."



Just did tit pro forma, even tho Moleman said not wanting to prove most things.

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-nox-
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by -nox- » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:37 pm

statement: it's fun to stay at the YMCA

proof and/or statement:

when you're short on your dough.
You can stay there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time

y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal,
You can do what about you feel

Young man, are you listening to me?
I said, young man, what do you want to be?
I said, young man, you can make real your dreams.
But you got to know this one thing!

No man does it all by himself.
I said, young man, put your pride on the shelf,
And just go there, to the y.m.c.a.
I'm sure they can help you today.

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal,
You can do what about you feel ...

Young man, I was once in your shoes.
I said, I was down and out with the blues.
I felt no man cared if I were alive.
I felt the whole world was so tight ...

That's when someone came up to me,
And said, young man, take a walk up the street.
There's a place there called the y.m.c.a.
They can start you back on your way.

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

Y-m-c-a ... you'll find it at the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, there's no need to feel down.
Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground.

Y-m-c-a ... you'll find it at the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, there's no need to feel down.
Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground.

Y-m-c-a ... just go to the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, are you listening to me?
Young man, young man, what do you wanna be?

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MadAce
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by MadAce » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:02 pm

-nox- wrote:statement: it's fun to stay at the YMCA

proof and/or statement:

when you're short on your dough.
You can stay there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time

y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal,
You can do what about you feel

Young man, are you listening to me?
I said, young man, what do you want to be?
I said, young man, you can make real your dreams.
But you got to know this one thing!

No man does it all by himself.
I said, young man, put your pride on the shelf,
And just go there, to the y.m.c.a.
I'm sure they can help you today.

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal,
You can do what about you feel ...

Young man, I was once in your shoes.
I said, I was down and out with the blues.
I felt no man cared if I were alive.
I felt the whole world was so tight ...

That's when someone came up to me,
And said, young man, take a walk up the street.
There's a place there called the y.m.c.a.
They can start you back on your way.

It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.
It's fun to stay at the y-m-c-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

Y-m-c-a ... you'll find it at the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, there's no need to feel down.
Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground.

Y-m-c-a ... you'll find it at the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, there's no need to feel down.
Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground.

Y-m-c-a ... just go to the y-m-c-a.

Young man, young man, are you listening to me?
Young man, young man, what do you wanna be?
Please differentiate more between proof and statement. Apart from that the reasoning behind the statment seems sound. Carry on.

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-nox-
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by -nox- » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:11 pm

want to hear my opinion of being in the navy?

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MadAce
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by MadAce » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:19 pm

-nox- wrote:want to hear my opinion of being in the navy?

:roll: :lol: :roll:

No thank you. That's for another discussion.

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devilwolf
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by devilwolf » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:16 pm

so moleman, can I (safely) assume that you are stating that the *ideal (when started) socialist society ended up being a communist society, and that its down fall was trying to keep up with a capitalist society? :?

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Moleman
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by Moleman » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:32 pm

devilwolf wrote:so moleman, can I (safely) assume that you are stating that the *ideal (when started) socialist society ended up being a communist society, and that its down fall was trying to keep up with a capitalist society? :?
I would pretty much agree with that summary other than the fact that in my opinion, though it was its stated ideal and part of their manifesto, the USSR was never a socialist state in the true sense.

All men are created equal, except some are more equal than others, etc. ;)

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CrazyChef
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by CrazyChef » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:09 am

Kinda like the USA "Democracy" lol.. majority rules, unless of course ... hehe

McGrod
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Re: Debate! Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, or none the above!

Post by McGrod » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:12 pm

removed.

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