Pirates sleeping in inns now?

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Do you support this change?

Yes
21
55%
No
7
18%
I don't care
10
26%
 
Total votes: 38

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Turkey
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Pirates sleeping in inns now?

Post by Turkey » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:01 am

Players with -1000 reputation can now sleeps in the Deep Space Inn, although at 5 times the price.
It was mentioned in Vadia's thread on upcoming features, however I declined to comment in hope that it would be postponed indefinately. Unfortunately it was implemented today.

Let me start my argument by listing the pros and cons of being evil:

Pros
-Far, far, far, far easier to reach -1000 rep than to get +5000 rep.
-Also easier to get the 1.25 mil for seth than the 2 mil for ISC
-Able to buy Sethdar, arguably the best PvP ship in the game
-Able to buy nukes
-Can shoot up +ve and -ve rep players with no fear of reputation damage
-Can shoot up suspected newbies without fear of aggression penalty
-Can invade any colony with no fear of reputation damage
-Can rob ports
-Able to use all four starbases on the map

Cons
-Unable to buy Starcruiser, arguably the best invasion ship in the game
-Unable to collect bounties on players they kill
-Only one location to buy Sethdar from
-Need to spend slightly more at the Inn


Does this seem a little unbalanced to you? I may have forgotten something, but even so.

Let me now propose a possible cause for this change. On permanent servers, the majority of the top players are +ve aligned (did you notice my clever avoidance of the word 'good'?). It is possible that a developer saw this, and thought people were choosing to be so because the penalties for pirates were too harsh. I would like to point out that this is not the case. The reason for this alignment is not by choice, but because only people with unity colonies get near the top, and unity colonies force +ve reputation upon people.
Therefore increasing benefits for evil players will not lure the top people to the dark side: they have no choice in the matter.
Perhaps this 'forced honour' is a fundamental flaw in the permanent Starport game, and perhaps it does need to be rectified. I don't, however, see what harbouring terrorists can achieve.

As a side note, can any further attempts to balance the permas please be restricted to permas only? I play rebangs, and the pirates are having a field day on this side.

Please voice your opinions on this matter, together (preferably) with any other possible reasons for this disaster.

I sincerely hope this gets repealed within the week. I have a corporation of bounty hunters on Hostile Takeover whose very existence is in jeopardy.

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Crosseyed
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Post by Crosseyed » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:49 am

Well, the penalties for piracy are far more pronounced over the long term than the short term. If pirates are allowed to sleep in ports as well (the cost factor is meaningless since it's still on the same order of magnitude and well within affordable bounds), then the sole remaining drawback of short-term piracy is largely eliminated, since on a rebang, dying is considered greatly undesirable, while the benefits of being good and being able to invade are largely immaterial.

The game has further tilted towards pirates as of late because photon torpedoes are currently highly unreliable and frequently inoperable as a result, so that they are as equally useless against turrets as the EMP is, while being even more useless against players since the damage is miniscule.

Over the long-term, being a pirate carries the disadvantage that can be very inconvenient to get a new ship (the exact level of disadvantage varies from server to server), and, of course, your ship is available only at a singular location. The experience is irrelevant, being shot down is irrelevant, and staying in ports is largely irrelevant. Given the perception that being good is a beneficial thing, being a pirate can also be very profitable in that people will be willing to pay you a not inconsiderable sum of money that scales with the age of the server purely for the privilege of shooting you down.

All in all, veteran invaders benefit more from being +ve and in ISCs, newbies and latecomers benefit more from being pirates. The pros *FAR* outweigh most of the cons with the sole exception of the case where you want to invade lots of planets on a limited supply of nukes. That case can be a surprisingly compelling, though.

It is nonetheless a fact that many veterans perceive being a pirate as a negative state and will dump cash in large quantities to get out of it, but others see it as not being as bad as it seems depending on server conditions: Being a pirate is very situational.

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Starwynd
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heh

Post by Starwynd » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:18 pm

I think toonces saw the galaxies ruled by massive good rep people, and couldn't avoid people becoming pirates, so hes trying to make it easier on pirates so that good rep people can better be fought.

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Phase
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Post by Phase » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:23 pm

uhhh sleeping in ports while evil? what r u smokin, i cant log out in ports! ive tried as soon as i heard about that and got kicked out for being below -1,000 i see no change here...

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Post by (MSR)Peace » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:36 pm

Pirates needed a new advantage... But now what is the point of sleeping on colonies? There is none.

What makes pirates so different from the UN commissioned? Well, one less thing now...

:-/

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Post by MelkoR » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:49 pm

un commision should be able to kill pirates in un space...

and pirates should get another pirate base....

and pirates and un commision should be able to stick bounties on the opposite of rep, even if its not up there

and you should get negative rep from colonies if your evil, even if their unity

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Turkey
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Post by Turkey » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:29 pm

Phase, perhaps you are right and this has just been a mistake? I hope so.
EDIT: I just tested it. Pirates can sleep at the inn. Playing SP has lost its meaning.

Unfortunately the majority of the comments so far have been from permaverse players, who seem to be entirely missing the point. Of course it's better to colonise if you have infinite time for it. And crosseyed, the getting a new ship thing can be a problem, but only if you are blown up. And I already listed it as a con for being evil, so it doesn't further help my understanding.

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Post by seth » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:03 am

well, since we begged enough and got rep un nerfed, this had to happen. this is to save the noobs that are retarded enough to fight someone with 30 mil rep from never being able to dock safely again.

but yeah, i agree that rules need to be thought out better and applied on a singular server basis instead of game wide level.

evil people should be able to put out a maifa hit on some cop or judge the same that a un commisioned guy can bounty them. and you should be able to hold a person's bounty for a long long time before it lets them off the hook

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Turkey
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Post by Turkey » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:13 pm

Rep was un-nerfed? I didn't know that, thanks.

So a heap of noobs went and attacked an Emperor at some point, then wondered why the innkeepers didn't like them. Great. As I don't play permas, I won't comment on that particular occurence.

So the only thing left to say is a request for this to only affect permas? You don't often get people with more than +15k rep on the rebangs, so it can't be an issue here.

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Post by Crosseyed » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:24 pm

Turkey wrote:Unfortunately the majority of the comments so far have been from permaverse players, who seem to be entirely missing the point. Of course it's better to colonise if you have infinite time for it. And crosseyed, the getting a new ship thing can be a problem, but only if you are blown up. And I already listed it as a con for being evil, so it doesn't further help my understanding.
Well, pirates don't really have a significantly impeded ability to colonize. While the Sethdar is not an ideal ship for colonization due to its relatively small 110 holds, the Whale is a perfectly acceptable alternative: 150-hold class ships are hardly difficult to come by. The ISC handily has everything in one package, but if you're looking to colonize instead of do battle, you don't need a warship, and the Whale is not a Flower: It's a very survivable ship easily capable of dispatching common NPC resistance and avoiding the occasional pushy player on rebangs. Now when multiple NUKES start flying your way, the whale is certainly at a disadvantage, but this is minor.

Colonizing as a pirate is also mildly impeded by the reduced supply of colonists at ports, but this is easy enough to overcome with XP provided your reputation is not absolutely horrendous, which is unlikely on a rebang....and you wanted XP anyway, on rebangs.

All in all, this new change has little or no real impact on Permas, since the ability to turn people into pirates to get them kicked out of ports has long since evaporated, and shooting someone down is meaningless, but has WILDLY tilted the advantage towards evil in rebangs, since the primary drawback, the fact that you are always at risk for being shot down, is effectively gone, removing the only real problem with being a pirate: Since you never want to die on a rebang, everything else is immaterial.

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Post by MadAce » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:42 pm

Oooh! MelkoR! You genius!!

Vilains should be able to place "contracts" or a "green light" on UN commisioned people.

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Post by Crosseyed » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:09 pm

MadAce wrote:Oooh! MelkoR! You genius!!

Vilains should be able to place "contracts" or a "green light" on UN commisioned people.
That's old TW2002 material, and in TW, drops your rep faster than posting bounties on evils raises it.

The problem is, practically nobody *DOES* it because, let's face it: Shooting people down on permas is a meaningless achievement aside from the symbolism of performing it personally. There is thus only one GOOD reason to actually post money on anyone: Alignment manipulation. Bounties exist not because people actually care to see an individual pirate shot down. They exist because somebody wanted to gain rep (or in this case, lose rep). Thus, while cool, unless some tangible effect occurs as a result of posting a bounty on somebody, nobody will actually do it, and nobody is going to be motivated purely to collect on a bounty, because even the most massive bounty runs headfirst into the cash limit. And if you really wanna see someone die, and set a MASSIVE bounty on him because he's a tough kill, you're going to find that 9/10 times, that person ends up with some or even all of the money, or perhaps even more, because the killer will split the bounty.

Thus, while cool, it ultimately has no real use, just as in TW: Practically nobody used this option because there were simply more accessible ways to lose alignment and become evil.

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Drifter101
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Post by Drifter101 » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:43 pm

Pirates sleeping in inns now?
I have mixed feelings about this change, it's another example of how one set of rules cannot be optimal for both permas and rebangs.

It is bad for rebangs. Previously the rewards of invading a pirates nest and getting a sleeper was one of the fun things about rebangs, also allowing the possiblity of rapidly climbing the rankings later on in the game which kept things interesting.

Atleast this patch does help rebalance things on permas by giving the dark-side a much needed boost (although the UN is still stronger)

The combat rep system on permas still is flawed though; At the moment if two people with equally large +ive reps fight, the 'winner' gets a large rep loss while the loser gets momentary inconvenience of fetching a new ship.. there is an imbalance here that makes it not worth fighting. There are not usually significant gains to killing someone in a perma, fighting is more often just for fun so should not be punished like this :?

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Post by Nightmare » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:59 pm

LOL back to the beta version ^^, I can be a pirate again all the time, yeah to the mighty Toonces :D.

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Turkey
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Post by Turkey » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:20 pm

Drifter101 wrote:Atleast this patch does help rebalance things on permas by giving the dark-side a much needed boost
Perhaps the dark side does need a boost on permas. In my origional post, I commented that it is the nature of long-term games and therefore also permas that people who build the most colonies have the biggest exp advantage. The only way to change this is to change the way colonies deal out exp.
Please tell me how sleeping in a port is going to let some casual pirate get to three million experience? I don't see how this is a boost at all. The only pirates to do any good in the ranks are those with colonies for exp, and if they have them, they can sleep on them. So no port is needed.

The problem with blowing up a +ve rep player on permas was fixed at one point: Most people refer to it as rep adjust. Then a whole heap on idiots kicked up a fuss, and it was changed back. So now who's fault is it that nobody can score a decent kill without being ripped off? Not mine, I didn't complain.

The current poll results are 17 people support the change and only 6 do not support it. Let me interperet this:
Most of the people to post do not support the change. These people are perma players who, like me, disagree with the logic behind it. This just about takes care of the six.
So who are the other seventeen? Pirates on rebangs. They have just come across a huge advantage, and want to exploit it as much as possible. The reason, then, for there being such a big difference in the figures is that pirates ALREADY outnumber good guys on rebangs by nearly three to one.

Similarly, I had a look at the 3 rebang servers that had ended shortly before this change was made. 22 out of 30 players in the top ten over the three servers had negative rep.
Balance is becoming a serious issue here.

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Post by Relentless » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:25 am

Turkey, I'm a perma-player and occasionally a rebang player. I used to be arround when there were no permas and I support the change.

Why? Because, accumlative rep hurts new players and quite honestly there had to be some sort of sollution; perhaps not neccasarily the best but it was a sollution.

To get over killing someone like me in perm1, but I got nerfed from 25,000,000 positive rep in a PERMA game which is where this pirate/goodie issue originated , I slapt 5 people with my 3,000,000 rep before my rep got even larger into pirates and then Ace/Starwynd + me + Zach lasered up pirate space and nooone could get a good ship as a pirate.

THATS where the issue is Turkey :)

So, there has to be some sort of hopefull future for players who can't get their rep back at least, not right away.

And I might still add: Turkey. That it costs 5x the cost than it would a good person for a pirate to sleep in a port. So all in all, it's a debateable change. It has it's desirable side and displeasing half as well.

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Post by Turkey » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 am

Eurgh! Another perma-player response! This is getting nowhere...

I'll just nullify your points for a bit... excuse that they're not in order:
Lasers around pirate base... Big deal. Doesn't take a genious to use a merchant cruiser w/explosive charges to remove those. And I don't see what buying a Seth has to do with Inns.
5* the cost for pirates means stuff all. When was the last time you cared about 4k/hour? And because pirates invade people's cash farms all the time, they tend to have 10* as much cash as good guys.... on rebangs anyway. Maybe only the same amount on permas.
Of course accumulative rep hurts new players. So does accumulative planets... This isn't a solution at all. If a new player shoots down somebody with a gazillion rep, they can't get the ISC... that's the only real issue. They can sleep on colonies if they need to - they have the colonies, and if they're invaded on a perma they're stuffed anyway. Dying on top of that is minor in comparison.

Relentless, you effectively said what Seth said. So I'm still at a loss for the reasons behind this change.

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Post by Relentless » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:45 am

Turkey wrote:Eurgh! Another perma-player response! This is getting nowhere...

I'll just nullify your points for a bit... excuse that they're not in order:
Lasers around pirate base... Big deal. Doesn't take a genious to use a merchant cruiser w/explosive charges to remove those. And I don't see what buying a Seth has to do with Inns.
5* the cost for pirates means stuff all. When was the last time you cared about 4k/hour? And because pirates invade people's cash farms all the time, they tend to have 10* as much cash as good guys.... on rebangs anyway. Maybe only the same amount on permas.
Of course accumulative rep hurts new players. So does accumulative planets... This isn't a solution at all. If a new player shoots down somebody with a gazillion rep, they can't get the ISC... that's the only real issue. They can sleep on colonies if they need to - they have the colonies, and if they're invaded on a perma they're stuffed anyway. Dying on top of that is minor in comparison.

Relentless, you effectively said what Seth said. So I'm still at a loss for the reasons behind this change.

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Should I make it any more clear to you ; perhaps spell it out?

Pirate Base IN Perm1 was lasered for 50 sodding hops nooone could get past the laser walls with 2-3 people maintaining the vast laser walled expanse

so ...

NO PIRATE could get a SETHDAR or any ship with 16,000 shields if they killed any 1 of the dozens of 5,000,000 + pos rep players or especially lost 2 million rep for killing someone with 20,000.000 rep.


Let's also put this plain and simple YOU do not desire this patch because you want to kill pirates and because this is how you wish things to be.

This has nothing to do with logic, or practicality it has everything to do with what YOU WANT. It's getting sickening as you continuasly explain it.... it's just clear that you'r making demands without even understanding you'r attacking my points... seriosly if you can't debate - don't debate.

And if you still don't understand after I've just flipping repeated my-self for the Nth time....... stop replying ; there's no point in trying to grasp what's to high above your reaches.


EDIT: Sidenote, it would be interesting if certain changes would not effect rebangs or permas and one would be on one type and not the other just to make things fine between the a-massing hoards of whining people such as myself mhauahaha

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Turkey
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Post by Turkey » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 am

Lasering 50 systems around the starbase only proves one thing: That you're an arse. But I already knew that.
Nobody really wants to spend days and days chipping away at your walls, if you're forcing them to do that then the game is a write-off anyway.
And this has nothing to do with sleeping in ports. So they can't get their ship? Okay, you're right that it is a big deal. Letting them sleep at the inn still isn't going to change that.

Yes, I do want to kill pirates. You act as this is a bad thing (perhaps in your opinion it is, but that's your problem). What I want is a game where I can seek revenge from the heartless outlaws who have been invading and stealing for as long as I can remember. Even if I can't 'win' with this strategy, it is an underused but potentially very enjoyable play style. So what I want is to have fun.

Pirates have been booted out of inns for about 2 years. Why are the rebangs suddenly changed now?

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Post by Relentless » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:01 am

Turkey wrote: Nobody really wants to spend days and days chipping away at your walls, if you're forcing them to do that then the game is a write-off anyway.
When you'r on dial-up like yourself then yes it is a write-off.

You'r a baby-rebanger, and I'm a holy perma-rebang hybrid; you don't like me and I don't exactly think you'r the hot stuff here now do I?

I've played from both angles and you havn't, not truely so why should I even continue argueing with some sobbing excuse for "I want my way" ? In every sentence of you'rs turkey I can only read the following
I want my way
Get over it...

and bessides though I don't agree with the pollution patch I'm getting over it healing my wounds and you probably havn't noticed I've stopped bitching about it; sounding off at it's demonic appearance.

So if I can put up with major changes; why can't you?

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